To think it is long overdue that we brought in dog licencing

[Eurghh]

This is not a dog-bashing thread.

Dog poo is a massive issue in the UK - I agree some areas are worse than others, but i have lived in various places, holidayed all over, and it really is pretty bad pretty much everywhere. This country is already on its knees with paying for services out of the public fund, but SOMETHING has to be done about the huge number of people who let their dogs mess on the ground for the rest of us to contend with.

I think we need to bring back licences, which will pay for:

• dog wardens to regularly patrol problem areas, and issue fines
• a nightly hose down of pavements in problem areas and also all around pavements leading to schools
• cctv to identify people who don't pick up after their dogs
• dna database

All of this needs to be funded by dog licences.

YABU - the system is fine as it is
YANBU - please bring in licences for dog owners

Atttached to show a photo I took today which prompted me to write this, this quantity of poo is common round here, and I live in a naice well-to-do London borough.

We need a cultural change in social behaviour and assumptions about private pets and other things such as throwing litter in the streets. I don't know why we don't have a prohibition on toileting dogs in the streets; it's just awful to have this on the pavements and in front of people's houses in built-up areas. Why take dogs to the high street full of people and children having to see dogs using it as a toilet? We need to say that it isn't acceptable and that it is a responsibility of private owners to manage and deal with and not make it a public problem; they should toilet their dogs in their own property, house or garden or only in designated areas in the public space. Don't tell me dogs can't be trained or controlled. I saw a man the other day who let his dog go off the pavement and onto my neighbour's land in front of the house and do its business there. Utterly brazen. Others are on their phone and pay no attention to the dog. I saw an elderly woman sitting in a car in the high street open the door and dump a drinks can into the road as if it was the most natural thing in the world.

Licensing may help but it would have to be enforced. Many things are not, even when illegal - see cycling on pavements etc. We have people who ticket cars for illegal parking but why couldn't they deal with other things as well? They could but they don't. No one bothers to try to improve anything and people don't care.

It does seem odd that dogs are allowed to wee against walls, trees etc which will damage them. I guess wasn’t an issue when so few dogs but it is odd that we got used to it

I think this is true.
We already have legal support to fine people on littering, fouling, dogs out of control and are able to set up areas of dogs on leads.

Ime the local park to me that is dog on leads is mostly enforced by other dog walkers who get irritated by it.

We also need to find a way to get people fully on board with the current dog laws. It's hard to reports a neighbour churning out puppies, or to leave a pup behind when the conditions are bad or the mum isnt there and you can see laws are being broken. Lots of people currently make the decisions to lift the dog out but the circle continues

"However she was born in cupboard, her parents are siblings, the owners didn't know how many dogs they had because the breeding was so rampant. They were giving them out to friends etc, all underage, unchipped, no form of vet oversight. They were already breeching how many dogs they were allowed in the property, not getting the dogs adequate medical treatment etc but had never been prosecuted. Some of the adult dogs were clearly neglected but still walked in public.
Eventually one of the owners ended up having an ambulance called and the whole sorry saga was uncovered
There's thousands of dogs (and probably her siblings) that don't exist on any system at all."

It's this kind of situation, and similar, is the source of the problem - the dog crap, vile as it is, is a symptom of it. Too many dogs, too easy to get a dog. I think this is where the problem needs to be nipped in the bud.

We could start by making it as difficult as possible to breed and sell dogs - the law around puppy farms could be tightened up as a start. I also think there should be compulsory sterilization of dogs that are not owned by registered breeders. Maybe the dog license could be 2 tiered - a lower amount for sterilised dogs, a more substantial amount for non-sterilised dogs. Breeders would then be paying towards a problem they are helping to cause.

There are always going to be people who manage to avoid paying for licenses, avoid being prosecuted etc but it doesn't mean we just throw our hands up in horror, say its hopeless and not try to do anything about the problem. We have better technology these days - dog wardens could be empowered for example to scan dogs for microchips that could be coded to include information about the breeders name - this would alert them to "back street" breeders
who could be prosecuted. If the dog isn't chipped or the chip isn't up to date with the required information then the owner is fined & the dog seized.

Fines should be bigger - £100 for letting your dog fouled the footpath is paltry. In Singapore the fine is £600. The fine for having a dog off a lead in a public place in Singapore is £3000. There's no point having fines if they are not acting as a deterrent. Revenue from fines to go towards running the dog wardens service.

I think it's a bigger issue. There's a swathe of the population that just doesn't care about anything if it doesn't affect them and don't take responsibility for their actions or lack thereof. It's why they throw litter out of their cars - someone else can pick it up. Dog shits in the street - not their problem - they wont step in it so someone else can deal with that. They are the ones that park their cars obstructively, speed, queue jump etc etc, but will moan if they don't think they are getting what they are 'due' from Government. There's a lack of understanding how you are supposed to behave to enable society to work. Entitlement at its' worst.

Exactly.
Trying to set up street hosing isn't getting to the core of the problem. It's actually more likely that people would think fuck it, hosers are coming later, no need to pick up.
Clamping down on people who decide to let their bitch have a litter for "fun" or to make a few quid, stopping designer puppies arriving from abroad and puppy mills. We need more information out there so the public understand what they are doing and make better choices.
I absolutely would support a licence and would pay for one, but a license will still be fallible and certainly won't generate the income to provide dog poo services.
Like someone else said, it's the mindset of the population which is fucked. The litter, the graffiti, the dog shit....

Can i just also add that a £1000 fine for allowing your mutt to run at or jump up at anyone, doubling every time you let it happen.

Technically this falls under dangerous dogs already
People only have to fear harm from your dog rather than come to harm especially of your dog isn't on lead and recallable

YANBU to want dog licences but I can't see anything like what you're suggesting being brought in even with dog licence fees. There'd probably be more public cost trying to enforce dog licences and payment of fees and fines, and councils are so underfunded anyway.

I agree though, the dog mess problem is disgusting. I also think dog owners should have to have pet insurance and do puppy training classes but again, how do you really enforce that.

I completely agree, it shouldn't be allowed in the first place.

I agree with your last point, 100% - I think we have become so complacent. I would like to see puppy training classes, and the classes could be run for profit which contributes to the dog issues such as poo on the streets, and run away dogs. Pet insurance should be obligatory. I don't understand why it isn't - what do people do when they can't pay - GoFundMe?! When there are far needier causes, I am sure.

I don't doubt councils are underfunded - the dog licence would be set at a price to make it worthwhile.

I realise it probably sounds pedantic but I think it's worth highlighting there is a mass of laws/by laws etc currently available about dogs but just currently not well enforced.

Simply adding further laws doesn't help, it has to be about getting people to follow the ones already in place

-Local housing authorities can limit the number of dogs you have in council housing (as can landlords)

-Need a license if you advertise yourself as a breeder/ are considered to be making money from it or Have more than 3 litters a year. This comes with lots of requirements for breeders including needing to be linked with a vet. (Prison for 6 months and unlimited fines). They also need to be seen with mum and can't be resold other than by breeders under 6 months old, and can't be sold under 8 weeks old.

• all dogs need to be microchipped (and more crucially this needs to be up to date)fine 500 pounds

• in public all dogs must have a tag with owners name and address (phone number doesn't count, nor does qr tags) (fine up to 2000)

• dogs must be in control (including on your own property) if someone feels your dog could hurt them this can still be classed as out of control (unlimited fines, and prison sentences)

-councils can enforce on lead in things like parks, beaches, town centers using protection orders. Road traffic act covers dogs needing to be on short leads near roads (lots of different fine amounts)

-countryside code (fines up to 1000) covers dogs needing to be on leads on certain types of land, and on leads no more than 2m long near live stock

• fouling is covered by a specific animal droppings legislation as well as countryside code, asbos and other general laws ( fines of up to 1000)

-barking is covered under statutory nuisance

As well as laws around shock collars, welfare, tail docking, ear cropping, being suitably restrained in cars, banned breeds etc. There's also licencing requirements for dog walking, day care and boarding which is regularly flouted

The current legislation just needs to be used properly

There would need to be changes in how insurance works
My young dog is insured. My old one is not.
The older ones insurance slowly climbed until we were looking at about 8,000 a year for cover of 3000. Some insurers also don't cover at all once you have certain breeds or certain medical issues. We once had an epileptic dog that was just point blank uninsurable (even when we weren't asking them to cover the epileptic stuff)

You could suggest the insurance like banned dogs get which is public liablity

I live in Switzerland. Dog license is chf165 (£145) per year. A second dog costs twice the first dog. All dogs chipped and registered on a dog database. All dogs must wear a dog tag as well with the registration number. The fees pay for lots of bins and free bags in any location where dog walking is prevalent or encouraged.
Puppy school was mandatory up until recently, now it depends on the Kanton. Certain dogs need special licenses, and a few breeds are banned. Where I live, Staffies are banned, but the next town down the road, they are not. Usually dogs are banned from all parks where kids are likely to play. It’s a good system, still plenty of shit about though.

Agree with all of this. In my version of events dog licenses operate on a points based system and if your dog attacks someone, or is otherwise anti social you get points and a fine. Too many points bye bye dog license.

Nearly stepped in dog shit 3 times on my walk into town this evening

@HellsBalls that system sounds extremely sensible - mandatory puppy school is a great idea too. We have far too many feckless dog nutters treating their dog like a toddler and affording it human level rights

I know dog licences were unenforceable in the 1970s but I'm sure that, with computers and the Internet, it must be easier now.

If dog licences were issued to a particular address, saved on a database accessible to police, vets, dog wardens etc, it would surely be possible to check that dogs attending vets/ reported to dog wardens by concerned neighbours/involved in nuisance behaviour were licenced. If dogs were found to be unlicensed, there could be a 14 day grace period for them to arrange a licence, but if nothing was done, the owner could be fined and the dog seized. The people who don't insure their dogs are unlikely to be good, responsible owners.

Retired people would get a discount and the owners of unneutered dogs would pay twice the fee that the owners of neutered dogs would pay.

I say this as a dog lover and dog owner, albeit one who feels that the threshold for dog ownership is far too low at the moment and ultimately dogs and society at large would benefit from more regulation.

Lots of dogs aren't insured for valid reason. I've got one insured, but the other one got old and his insurance sky rocketed to be more per year than the coverage, equally I've had un insurable dogs due to health conditions

A huge portion of dogs aren't regularly attending vets. Besides you don't want a situation where dogs aren't being taken for medical care because someone is concerned about licencing

The thing is dog licenses do not equal dog shit problem solved. The two don't really go together. If we do £12 a year like NI the vast majority of people, bad or good owners, can afford to pay it easily.
The worst culprit for not picking up dog shit around here was a very well to do elderly women walking her Yorkies. I'm sure she'd have paid the license fee (even though over 65s are actually excluded from paying) but it didn't stop her blatantly avoiding her dogs shitting. She only stopped because she died.
Enforcement would help obviously, but the resources aren't there. Wardens aren't ever going to come and patrol the tiny village I live in -we don't even have a bus service.
I think it's just going to have to be a mindset shift. Communities coming together to try and tackle their particular area. We've had some success with "free" dog poo bags (provided by villagers, we leave the odd roll on top of bins for people to take). I buy a box per month and donate a roll or two from that. It's also frequently mentioned in the newsletter and the kids at school put up posters.

The money will be raised from fines if it's properly enforced.

No excuse not to have public liability insurance. Vet fees/mortality etc up to you. Public liability should be compulsory.

If someone is bitten by your dog, or knocked off their bike, or their livestock is injured they should be able to claim compensation for their injuries/losses. Too many people fail to insure their dogs and it is irresponsible, antisocial and unacceptable.

Sorry, you're quite right - I do agree that insurance and licensing are two separate issues and I wasn't actually talking about insurance at all, but I see I have accidentally put "insure" when I meant "licence". My bad!

In answer to your second point, it's true that lots of dogs don't often see a vet, which is why this would be just one string to the licensing bow, along with dog warden, spot checks, complaints from neighbours etc. I too would hate to see dogs not receiving veterinary care because the dogs' owners were worried about the dogs not being licenced, but that's why I suggested a two week grace period when they could obtain a licence without being penalised.

It won't. Fines won't cover a fraction of the costs involved unfortunately. How many fines do you really think would be handed out? How are they catching people? "Properly enforced" involves catching people in the act -unlikely -or DNA testing or which as described by another poster in this thread is not only very expensive but unreliable. If you fined people £10,000 it still wouldn't even cover the wage bill needed for thousands of dogs wardens across the UK. Say you paid £25,000 for 500 dog wardens (not near enough for the whole UK to be enforced, but an example). That's 12.5 million pounds. There is absolutely no way on earth that amount would be raised from fines alone, and that's not even factoring in the numerous other costs involved.

Same by me - it is disgusting.
You can see where it has been stood in and walked. It's a health hazard

Councils already employ Civil Enforcement Officers to deal with parking and littering. Issue them with some gloves and evidence bags and they can add this to their duties.

The worst culprit for not picking up dog shit around here was a very well to do elderly women walking her Yorkies. I'm sure she'd have paid the license fee (even though over 65s are actually excluded from paying) but it didn't stop her blatantly avoiding her dogs shitting.
Just as I've been saying, even if you're not going to crack the toughest nuts a scheme can still make a difference.

In my line of work, it's conventional wisdom that pursuing every refusal to pay would cost more than it brings in. Therefore the revenue protection approach is to have just enough of a deterrence to stop things turning into anarchy.