Lucy Letby. Why do some people only read headlines?

[skyfirechesnut]

I was at work today and someone says so Lucy letby is innocent now. They have just gone with the media headlines. Instead of researching.

Sorry for the fail link but this is quite a good article below on the current state of things. The author has attended all trials and listened to appeals and conferences.

I also don't understand people who say she was scapegoated. If people follow the Thirwall enquiry this is far from the case. She was totally protected, her parents calling up, being in meetings, dictating apologies. It beggars belief.

I can somewhat understand people saying she is innocent based on medical evidence after the press conference but even that is nothing new.

You can't say my expert is better than yours.

Also people seem to think it was all Dewi Evans for the prosecution it wasn't. There was Dr Bohin, Prof Arthurs , Prof Hindnarsh and Dr Mar etc.

That is without the Doctor colleagues if you want to dispute them.

Then they new defence have changed ideas from the conference they had in December.

They are also not totally impartial.
It isn't as simple as the headlines.

Here is the article.

archive.ph/NYg7U

But can prejudice a trial.

The case is all over the public domain. You could argue Thirlwall, Liz Hull, police documentary, police leaks etc prejudice future trials too. Thirlwall especially. They have spilt out irrelevant detail like Letby's GCSE results and two isolated medicine mistakes. They have let her be described as guilty of crimes where the jury did not find her guilty. They have invited people to accuse her of more crimes without defence or representation - all for the legal record.

Medical experts stating what they've found in their investigations seems perfectly proportionate in comparison.

I disagree as one is for a future trail. Thirwall is in response to the guility verdict.

Thirlwall is just as capable of prejudicing a future trial as anything else, and all that information is carefully transcribed and uploaded into the public domain.

No? I don’t think there’s any evidence she’s a bad nurse. What makes you think that?

So you wouldn't mind a nurse texting a lot while looking after your prem baby?

Discussing your baby in texts?

Plus more.

Ok you haven't obviously read much around the whole case. Makes sense now.

Letby worked more than 12 hours per shift - nearer 13 with handover. If she was texting while snatching quick breaks when all was quiet, I would have no problem with that. Certainly nurses on NHS wards seem to do it, as for most jobs.

Her manager at the time, Eirian Powell, confirmed there was no policy against it.

I think it's quite nice that she and her colleagues cared enough about the babies to text each other about how they were doing.

We would all be a bit more aware of the need to communicate personal information through secure channels now, but it's obvious from the fact that Letby texted with different colleagues and they texted her that this was normal culture on their ward.

This is completely normal. You do realise nurses work 12 hours shifts and have breaks. You do realise they discuss their work with colleagues like anyone else? They are humans too 🙄.

It’s actually ridiculous that you think details like this have any relevance whatsoever to this case. People’s interest in and manipulation of completely banal facts like this is the whole f’ing problem.

But what is your point here? What does her being either a good or a bad nurse have to do with anything?

Are you trying to say that Thirlwell will have no influence on a future trial, but the press conference will? How do you work that one out?

That is part of one of the three questions Shoo Lee recommended asking Evans: if you really saw what you claim in the medical records and only that, why did your mind go to deliberate harm?

Separately, in interview, Lee confirmed that they saw no evidence of negligence or error in Lucy Letby's care for her charges.

Let's remember too that she was moved to day shifts where there would be "more eyes" on her, for a few months before leaving the ward. I'm sure one of the dozens of witnesses at trial and Thirlwall would have mentioned by now if she was texting, slacking, or a bad nurse. Even the consultants who accused her acknowledged that there were no problems with her practice.

What it's most likely to do is actually make people more open minded if there was another trial, which is the fairest thing.

Can you:

• Summarise the evidence for LL’s poor nursing practice.
• Explain why you think the RCPCH report and her colleagues were wrong who described her as a respected, competent nurse who followed procedure.
• Give examples where LL’s nursing practice impacted baby outcomes as much as doctors’ decisions - eg Harkness’s failure to give Baby E a blood transfusion until 30 mins before death.

The thing is, the new panel of witnesses was producing a summary of exactly the information they propose to produce in any new trial. So any new jury will hear it anyway.

It's not as if McDonald assembled a panel of witnesses to tell us all which modules the consultants struggled with at medical school, how often they searched nurses on Facebook, whether they texted one another between consultant rounds, and whether they watched medical murder mysteries on TV ...

Here are the NMC's reasons for deciding LL was a 'bad nurse' - no mention of texting on duty

https://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/sitedocuments/ftpoutcomes/2023/december-2023/reasons-letby-ftpcsh-67757-20231212.pdf

Tldr:

• Murder and attempted murder.
• Pattern of offending
• “No remorse”

This is such a non-argument. In what world would the NMC include issues like texting on duty in considering the fitness to practice of a neonatal nurse who has been convicted of murdering multiple babies in her care? It would make them look completely ridiculous.

I think she may have been a competent nurse in terms of her skills and was obviously very dedicated to her career, but the unprofessionalism of taking home notes and searching patients' families on Facebook would be a concern.

The point is that the only reason people think LL is a bad nurse is because they believe she murdered babies. If they didn’t believe this she would still be practicing .

@Tandora bringing in a cold cot before a baby has died, taking home and hoarding hundreds of handover notes, Facebook searching of families, making newly bereaved parents feel uncomfortable, generally lacking empathy (as per her failed assessment) - just a few of the reasons why she was not very professional and therefore not a good nurse.

And I know the reasons I've listed might never have led to her being struck off without the murders, but that still wouldn't mean that she was a good nurse.

It wasn't anything to do with the trail. I said that. I was wondering who blindly followed her without thought and also if she was to nurse again. No because she wasn't a great nurse at all.

It was more than just grabbing a text. It was a lot of texts. It is deeply unprofessional. Teachers can't have personal phones in the classroom due to safeguarding let alone on a ward.

I am you are all being disingenuous saying you wouldn't mind a nurse texting while feeding or looking after your baby. Sure!

No resoning with some of you.

Like I said again I can understand peoples doubt after the presser and the medical stuff id hard to get your head around.
But a good nurse, come on proves some of you will defend her whatever.

There definitely seem to have been some data protection issues but these probably would warrant a training course rather than 13 life sentences.

I imagine if you scrutinised the behaviour of other doctors and nurses to this extent over their careers you would find the same or worse issues. Certainly there seem to have been many medical mistakes on the ward by doctors.

I actually think the circumstantial evidence is very much in her favour. Given she is supposed to have murdered babies in all these very unusual ways and the worst thing any one can remember is her retrieving a tissue from a bin.

taking home and hoarding hundreds of handover notes

Normal, widespread practice . Nurses all over social media confessing they do this all the time.

Facebook searching of families

irrelevant.

making newly bereaved parents feel uncomfortable

This was a narrative developed only after she was accused of murder. At the time there was no suggestion anyone found her behaviour odd or uncomfortable.

generally lacking empathy

There’s plenty of evidence that she had a huge amount of empathy.