To be concerned about what Liz Kendall is up to with disability benefits?

[Locutus2000]

The Times reporting just how enthusiastic Labour are about targeting the disabled.

I can only hope they are getting the worst ideas out there first, if not I dread to think what is coming in the upcoming review.

I was confident Labour would at worst be no worse than the Tories.

I was wrong.

Free archive link here.

I don't think that is true at all. It's just that many of us on this thread would like to see the government do something more constructive than just punish people on benefits by cutting their money. It would benefit the economy and the people themselves if they could get back into work and stay there. I've seen the benefits of work on my DS myself - the confidence boost, the feeling of being valued, the social interactions, the learning opportunities - all those things are gold. I haven't seen any of the people bleating on about 'too many people on benefits' offer any kind of ideas - they just moan and complain. Do better.

@pointythings why would Labour highlighting the cost of benefits lead to the changes you'd like to see? The public are being asked to focus on £65bn which is high.

Plus the NI increase will hit lower end jobs first. Take the redundancy for the pp who had a good short hour job and now doesn't, and is unlikely to find similar.

How are those policies helping?

This government and the last one always leak ideas into the public domain and then they can gage public reaction without having to put it out as a potential future policy, then if there’s a negative reaction they can just deny it was ever a policy for consideration.

But they have though. Stop punitive tax. Stop dog whistle policies. Stop over complicating the tax system. Stop disenfranchising people from doing well. Stop the tax cliff edges that harm productivity. Stop policies which shrink employment in the private sector.

We need higher earners here, working to full capacity and paying as much as tax as they can. Not putting them off. We need to encourage those skilled higher earners to stay or come here. We need to encourage business to stay here, invest and employ. We also need those pesky rich here, spending their millions in our economy and investing.

Taxing and taxing is failing. Wealth is mobile. Talent is mobile. People can’t get past their own entitlement and envy to see they are cutting their nose to spite their face. We need these pesky people who bankroll the state. Without them, the state need to be cut. Less for everyone as we can now see. We can’t invest is public services without the wealth generated by the private sector.

Well it’s your govt proposing the reforms 🤷‍♀️

And we haven't seen the proposals yet - they're due out in a Green Paper in the spring. Also it isn't my government - I live here but I don't have a vote. To be fair I'd have voted Labour in my patch if I could have, tactically. Wouldn't have worked, we still got landed with another Tory.

The point I was making is that the right wingers on this thread haven't suggested anything constructive - they just advocate coming down harder on benefit claimants. The previous government did that for 14 years - has it worked?

Madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. So let's see what's in the Green Paper and then make our minds up.

I don't actually disagree with all of that. However, if you're going to do something about tax cliff edges, you also need to do something about benefit cliff edges to ensure that work pays. Nobody is suggesting that on this thread, are they?

Yes they have. The cliff edges need sorting right across the spectrum.

What happens along the way, is that they learn how to speak English, and are part of Society, like anybody else. What on earth do you think happens?

This point had been made endlessly on this thread but there are some posters that will just not have it

Which point, and which posters? All I've seen is people recognising the complexity of the issue from different perspectives.

I'd say it's one of the most civil and balanced discussions I've seen, especially recently.

@pointythings why is shrinking the private sector and increasing redundancies and closures anything bar madness?

How does it help?

The point that the disability benefit bill is currently unaffordable.

Something that you yourself can’t see so don’t let’s go round in circles any more with it.

Agree although I think she also went for the elderly, farmers and private kids because they are taxes easy to introduce and, it seems, either not an issue with most people or in fact popular taxes for most.

Tackling benefits isn’t going to be popular so Yes, I agree, they’ve decided to tackle that next.

Given the report concluded in September which looked at mainly
the way benefits are paid
and benefits to those with mental health issues
I think either both or at least one of these areas will have an overhaul

I’m not aware the September paper looked at fraud, it wasn’t mentioned at the time although Starmer has said they intend to tackle all fraud.

Please tell me where I have said that?

Why is taking money away from people on the bones of their arse leading to increased deaths and crime anything bar madness?

I think most of us can see it perfectly well. We just don't think that more of the same thing that hasn't worked in the past is the solution. The UK has deep, serious and multi-faceted problems. Just yelling about benefit claimants is not going to cut it - the underlying causes need to be addressed.

Yes
I do think cuts and reduced availability will happen.

Labour has swiftly taken away our voice already in terms of large scale planning applications. They have shown our voice is irrelevant to their grand plans and as such I do think they are capable of making big changes.
They have a good excuse lined up, I think it will happen.

Whether that’s achievable during this term is another question.

Didn’t you say the country wasn’t remotely bankrupt & it was just a matter of deciding how to allocate the money? In other words the current welfare bill is not unsustainable? Apologies if I’ve got the wrong poster.

Yes, what part of that suggests I think the sickness benefit bill is sustainable?

It obviously isn't, I'm not an idiot.

@pointythings you haven't answered my question

Labour supporters seem unable to look at why their party are moving on to benefits now.

If they didn't go for the private sector as they have they'd be in a better position. There'd be fewer redundancies and fewer business closures

The pp who has lost their job, who had a flexible short hour one, could still have it. How does that redundancy help their MH especially if they are unlikely to get another.

So for all the it isn't Labour, why isn't it? You can see the connection between the private sector and public / state funding at this point?

Universal credit does to some extent although not perfect, people lose benefit at a gradual rate for every extra pound over rather than losing the whole lot if they go over by a pound which is what happens on things like carers allowance

Fine. Obviously just my incorrect interpretation. Wishing you a good rest of the day & hope you can find someone else to argue with.

Is that an apology, or an attempt at a gotcha?

It’s a parting shot because I find your exchanges irritating.

You can't stand that you lost the argument, having attempted to put words in my mouth.