Why do our most prestigious and wealthiest Unis accept so many international students ?

[Berlinerschnauzer]

So said my son’s dad on learning DS2 failed to be offered a place at Cambridge…
I don’t know enough to confirm whether it’s sour grapes or he actually has a point.
Was looking at figures for Oxbridge and was surprised to find that something like 60 odd percent of students (under and post grads) are international. For undergraduates it’s nearly a quarter.
Likewise Edinburgh has 30% international students and is one of the wealthiest unis.
Unlike lower tier unis which don’t have the same deep financial pockets and have to attract foreign students to survive, surely these unis don’t. They could be attracting home grown, talented students who in years to come will contribute massively to the economy rather than returning to their home countries and taking their skills with them. My question is does ex DP have a point or is he spouting bollocks
as per usual ?

You aren't just paying for the contact time, you're paying towards facilities, libraries, student support, careers centres...

If you just base value on contact time, an Oxford humanities degree (1 or 2 hours of a tutorial per week, plus maybe one lecture series, but not every term) is a complete rip off. Except it's not, because you have access to an enormous copyright library and the ability to do huge amounts of research from that. You just won't have (and shouldn't need) someone holding your hand throughout.

Really, love to know where you got that.

I studied medicine and the international student on my course spoke perfect English. Many of them come from ex-colonies where English is a common spoken language and they where raised speaking it just like us.

I only met 1 person who didn't speak it from childhood (which was in college not uni so doesn't really apply) and she spoke better than most native English people as she was very staunch and proper for following correct language rules.

The bottom line is we have too many universities and if some go under it wouldn't really be the end of the world.

I don't know about Oxford but to retain college status Cambridge had to hold £50m on liquid assets and actually "traded" at a loss last year. Just see the number of redundancies at other unis including Durham and other RGs to see why they need international students to remain financially viable. Actually fewer are applying due to Brexit and racism/far right undertones being set in the country and reported in the media.

There is no prioritisation of international students. If anything, when we see similar abilities, we try our best to balance nationalities, demographic backgrounds, individual circumstances

@nameychangey111 I’ve read that there are contextual offers made to applicants from UK which is obviously fair enough, but how do you discover what are the social and educational backgrounds of international applicants?

The amount Oxford and Cambridge charge UK students for their degrees is probably less than actually costs them. I think Oxford and Cambridge make their money from Investments rather than just student fees, Also, the UK students in Oxford are probably subsidised more by international students than at Wolverhampton. Oxford is much more attractive to international students and they can charge more.
Most universities are in deficit last year so while you think it should cost less than 9k it obviously doesn't.

I’m a lecturer and do admissions for our postgraduate programmes. One of the top RG unis. It’s because that’s who applies. I assume because they can afford it.

I don’t even know students’ nationalities when I make admissions decisions though you can make a guess based on their names and their undergraduate unis. I would say 70% of applicants to our postgraduate programmes are international, mostly China, Korea, Gulf States.

We aren’t making those decisions because those students pay more (I’m not involved in that end of it). But there just aren’t significant numbers of British students applying. I assume because there is little funding to support them and it’s expensive. Whereas these international students seem to have the funds (family money, government funding?) to pay the fees.

Unless you work at one or live in a community where the university is a major employer...... 🤷🏼‍♀️

I have B2 French. I certainly wouldn’t be capable of studying for a degree in French.

My DD is doing a masters at UCL. Her course is 85% international, largely Chinese, and a substantial proportion of those students have extremely poor language skills.

She has had to spend weekends rewriting international students’ contributions to group projects, because the level of English was so poor that you couldn’t understand what they were trying to say.

Any rules in place to ensure students have sufficient language skills are not working.

The same could be said if Tesco went bust

I work in a Russell group university and to answer some of the points -

I don’t agree home and international students are equal when it comes to admissions. My uni are openly saying they need to recruit more international students as any more drop in numbers would be financially devastating. You can thank Rishi Sunak for that as he was so desperate to get visa numbers down that he targeted international students.

I’ve found that not all but lots of the international students can’t speak English well at all. They do get tested but this is done online before they get here so lots suspect that they cheat by getting someone else to sit the test. I run meetings with students and regularly have to get interpreters in as the students have no idea what I am saying. God knows how they understand lectures. Unethical of universities to take their money and set them up to fail.

universities are going broke but I would agree there’s unbelievable money wasted by lots of middle managers being brought in who do sod all work. A bit like the NHS. Also lots of people doing sod all work of any use but it’s impossible to sack incompetent or lazy staff as it’s public sector.

I know people like Corbyn wanted tuition fees to be scrapped but all this means is universities will take more international students and he students won’t get a place. This has happened in Scottish universities so unfortunately you do need to charge fees. Wish they could be lower as lots of degree not worth it but this wouldn’t work.

Universities going under would be pretty shit, actually. It would have the biggest impact on marginalised students/potential students who can't afford halls/need to stay for family support as they're lone parents etc, who can't just go somewhere else.
Also, it would have a massive impact on the local economy. St Andrews, as one example, would be totally devastated. The only other reason to go would be golf, really, which means the town would be as dead in the winter as Blackpool.
I don't get why there's such a downer on MN on universities lately. Nobody is going to make you attend one.

But yeah op it's money.
As well as brexit, the hostile environment in general means policies like the new ban on bringing your partner when you come to study. So it's getting less and less attractive to study in the UK. But oxbridge will always still appeal.

Its the money. The fees british students pay have been capped for years at a level that's too low. International students keep the uni afloat financially

Brexit is an issue but for different reasons. Due to Brexit the UK universities have lost a vast amount of ££££ that they used to get as research grants. This shortfall hasn't been filled and has caused issues.

So for all the Nigel Numpties wanting to celebrate the 5 year anniversary of withdrawal celebrate that!!

I've just done a 4 yr undergrad and currently doing an MA in a Russel group uni. On my course there were 1 or 2 international students each module, including the MA. All were extremely bright and capable, regularly attend and spoke better English than me.

The unis need them for the fees. My MA costs 10k for a home student, 25k for an international student. So the 2 students we have are equivalent to 5 home students.

Redundancies and cost cutting measures were announced last year at my uni because they fell out of the top 100, therefore wouldn't attract as many international students. This has included pulling scholarships for PhDs in my department, which I would have applied for and stood a chance of getting.

Partly it’s money, partly it’s because they want the best students they can get - which gives them first pick of the best research talent, and helps them maintain their reputation.

On the bright side, they take a lot more students than they used to, so more people get to go.

If your dc really wants it, take a year off and reapply. It sometimes works

Some cities would be devastated if the university shut as many local businesses stay open due to students spending money

It's both. Foreign students bring in the most income

Tell that to all the students in the middle of their degrees at that University and all the people and who are made redundant. Lots of businesses would probably go under too because students are no longer living in the town.
It wouldn't necessarily be the university's you think should go under that will go under either.

£££££££!!!

The same could be said if Tesco went bust.

Not really.
The customers of Tesco would continue to shop in the local are.
University students would stop spending money locally so it wouldn't just impact the university.

I think the situation varies between courses - medicine is an extremely involved course and it would be impossible to make it past the first year without very good language skills - but many courses are less intense, particularly one year masters courses.

My daughter is doing a masters at UCL currently and is having a very different experience to you. Her cohort is largely Chinese, and many of them seem to have extremely poor English language skills.

She has had to spend weekends rewriting international students’ contributions to group projects, because the level of English was so poor that you couldn’t understand what they were trying to say - she suspects they wrote their sections in Chinese and then fed them through an online translator.

And she’s also had issues where she’s been grouped with 2-3 Chinese students on a project and they’ve refused to speak to her in English, making it impossible for her to participate.

The professors seem to have given up on mixed groups now, and just tacitly group students by nationality, which is a real shame.

Going back to the first days of fees, there were originally plans to charge higher fees for more prestigious, over-subscribed courses and institutions. I can't remember who nixed the proposal.

I’ve found that not all but lots of the international students can’t speak English well at all. They do get tested but this is done online before they get here so lots suspect that they cheat by getting someone else to sit the test.

This has been a problem for ages

International students have to attend pretty
much all classes or else their visa will be taken away and universities need to make sure attendance is religiously recorded. This university were breaking visa rules and could shut down if caught