Acceptable / realistic break pattern for 12 hour day?

[Proudestmumofone1]

Hi all

I realise I am writing this from a privileged position of being able to afford help at home (I am disabled and require additional support and we are lucky enough to be able to afford it - for now!)

We have had a full time live in nanny since our daughter was 6 weeks old. She is now 3.5 and in preschool full time during term time (7.30-4.30).

Our nanny was employed as a nanny/housekeeper.

Obviously the role has changed now our daughter (since September) is in full time preschool.

However, she is often refuse to complete household tasks and we have to employ cleaners etc.

Im feeling frustrated as it is a lot of money and having to work hard whilst someone is doing very little between 7.30 and 4.30 is frustrating!

my question is, what is a reasonable break schedule for someone working 6.30am - 6.15pm?

Would it be expected that personal cooking ie preparation of own lunch, is within the lunch break?

We’ve fallen into a pattern where we have little say over the tasks she does and her schedule but this has meant there are more and more breaks happening. Eg breakfast for 40 mins at 8am ish, then cooking for lunch during morning, then eating lunch say 11.15-12, then dinner at 4.30-5.15.
she has a full hour off around 12pm to 1pm for ‘lunch break’ that she spends in her room.

I am really not trying to be horrible and not let her have reasonable breaks, but the timings just don’t work - 4.30-5.15 is the only time in the day we need help with childcare! Having the dinner break before my daughter comes home would make so much more sense…

So what would you see as reasonable for these hours?

(I do think the fact that little ‘work’ is done in the time is a factor in my frustration - max 1 hour a day of laundry).

Please please don’t pile on about the fact we have this amount of help - it really is a necessity for us as I am physically unsafe to be with my daughter alone due to my disabilities so always need ‘someone in the background’ when I’m with her.

Oops apologies for typos! Clearly half asleep after the daily struggle getting my daughter into nursery…. ‘But I want to be homeeee’ 🤣

Sounds like you need a different person as Nanny’s often don’t do household chores. You need a housekeeper who will assist with your daughter too. Maybe advise Nanny what you need and ask if she can provide, if not give notice and advertise for exactly what you need. I’d stipulate the breaks for times that work for you. Maybe 2 half hour (unpaid) breaks.

Ideally, as many and as long as she needs. Paid. I'd say the same for any job, but alas, capitalism.

If her breaks aren't working for you, and she's not actually helping at the time of day you need help, you need to talk to her. It's not up to us to dictate whats reasonable for her - we don't know her. We can't discuss with her and get her reasons and POV. You need to do that as her employer, and come to o either agreement or compromise that works.

If her needs (or desires that she's unwilling to change) mean she cannot perform the most important parts of her job, you need a different nanny.

then eating lunch say 11.15-12, then dinner at 4.30-5.15.
she has a full hour off around 12pm to 1pm for ‘lunch break’ that she spends in her room.

This sounds a bit odd - is she working while she eats her lunch 11:15 - 12? I would suggest as a start that she has her lunch during her lunch break.

If you need her 4:30 - 5:15 wouldn't it make more sense for her working day to finish at 5:30 so she wouldn't need a separate dinner break?

Legally, she is only entitled to 20 minutes every 6 hours. Pragmatically, I would offer 1h in a 12h shift, plus two 15 minute tea breaks.
The bigger issue is that she is not actually doing what you need her to do. The position was advertised as nanny/housekeeper. She is not doing the housekeeping part and she is not doing much nannying either. I would speak to her about the agreed duties and times when you would like her to take breaks. If she is not happy with the arrangement, I would give notice as she is not fulfilling her contractual obligations. Then find someone more suitable.
Cooking her own meals should be done in break time or after work. I don't get extra time to prepare my lunch in the office.

@Zanatdy @Agix Agree with both of you.

Just to say, her contract is nanny / housekeeper and stipulated household tasks.

You're totally right though - we need to work out what works for us, have the conversation and see where that leads.

However, we have fallen into the trap of not wanting to ‘rock the boat’ especially when we know I have say a big surgery coming up and therefore are more reliant on support.

I guess my question is around what is typical within a work environment for breaks - I’m self employed so genuinely have no idea.

of course she may not agree to this when we pluck up the courage to have the conversation, but want to make sure we are coming from a reasonable standpoint in terms of expectation.

PS part of the reluctance to deal with this has been that it is sooo hard to find Nannys round here

@DaDaDoDaiDa i think this is my sticking point - no working whilst eating, sitting at the breakfast bar on phone etc. Whilst also spending a long time making a full meal in the morning. Then the allocated hour break.

Sorry wasn’t clear actually - I do need her around to help from 4.30 -6.15 as it depends if I can physically lift my daughter etc without support. But feel she could be eating before 4.30 rather than being ‘unavailable’ whilst eating dinner eg on her phone, headphones during the few hours of actual childcare during the day

Nurse working 12 hour shifts - 2 half hour meal breaks, (unpaid) plus 15 mins tea break paid. Ok a really really good day, a second 15 mins tea break!

@Catza thank you - super helpful and my thoughts exactly.

It really is so much money and we need to be ‘employers’ and set the boundaries we need - if not, finding someone else.

Think around £40k with food and lodging on top. I am by no means saying someone with this role doesn’t deserve appropriate pay, of course they do and more than happy to pay it, but when it comes down to that being a couple of hours work a day…. It is harder to accept.

In a 12hr shift (NHS) we used to get
Am x 15 min break
Lunch x 30 mins
2 or 3 x 15 min afternoon breaks depending on business

It sounds like you have fallen into a pattern of her taking the absolute p*ss and you not wanting to rock the boat because you need help.

If I did anything like this in my actual job (granted, I ONLY work for 11 hours per shift....) I would be told to leave.

@Advent0range god nurses really are heroes - no idea how you do it tbh, but thank you for explaining.

As a hospital ‘frequent flyer’ thank you for everything you do ❤️

@PeriPeriMam Nail. On. Head.

our friends and family think we are insane.

Especially as if I ask for help with something simple such as ‘please can you wipe the dining table today’ it can be met with a big fat shouty no (which they hear and can’t believe!)

I do value everything she has done for us and our daughter, just trying to make this work (or not if the case may be) for our new situation…

@Catza Sorry just processing everything, and you’re totally right - given the limited tasks during the day that are being done, the breaks are a bit here nor there as it’s not as if it is stopping other things happening.

It is about defining the role in general and having that conversation, including the break schedule.

Thank you for helping me think it through.

Start looking to replace her. She's taking the absolute piss.

When I used to work 12 hour shifts, we'd get a one hour lunch break, plus two further breaks of 25 mins for tea/snacks etc.

In your case would something like a half hour 'breakfast break' (as she starts early) work? Then a hour for lunch say 12-1, and then a short 'tea break' before your daughter gets home from school?

Hmmm ok, actually in light of this, maybe consider my break schedule for your next nanny/housekeeper. This one needs to go.

Although she might be taking the piss I do think you've blurred the lines with the role. Usually a nanny/housekeeper tends to the children, cooks their meals, does their washing up, might put a few loads of washing on, prep for the evening meal etc but the bulk of their role isn't cleaning.

What are you actually wanting them to do during pre school hours? If the role is predominantly becoming a cleaning role then that's not right.

The fact she has her own room.. is she a live in nanny or is she actually more like an au pair? Is she paid a nanny wage or an au pair wage?

She's taking the piss. Get rid and find someone else

@Acc0untant she is a live in nanny/ housekeeper who is paid on payroll eg holidays pension etc at around £40k a year.

Definitely not au pair rates.

Not expecting cleaning - we have a n amazing cleaner - but general tidying and keeping things ‘nice’ during the week. Eg putting away toys or emptying dishwasher.

She has been fantastic with our daughter and I’m really not minimising that, but as you say the role has changed and may not be what she wants. Although we did ‘sit down’ and talk about it when we knew my daughter was starting pre school and she was happy with it all…. However, hasn’t been the reality.

Also no cooking for daughter happening as she eats in preschool. Laundry is for the whole family but actually is a lot of her clothes!!

It sounds like you need to redefine her role and if she won't complete the tasks you need at the times they're needed then you terminate her employment and find someone else who will. Although I don't know how you stand legally with this and employment law - I've always wondered this about nannies, because obviously they won't be needed as much when DC go to school.

A £40k salary plus board and lodging sounds like an attractive option - someone could do that job for a few years and save up a huge amount of money.

I think you need to look at what you need to happen at fixed times, what can be done whenever, as long as it gets done and then try and fit breaks around this, with some flexibility, according to her preference - so she doesn't feel she's having to have lunch at 11 am or 2.30 pm for example.

@Bjorkdidit Thank you - totally agree and seeing you (and others) say this has given me the oumph I need to have the conversation and tackle it.

We are most definitely responsible for allowing this to happen and taking the easy road each time we think we need to… but thanks to you guys, feel ready to handle it.

Whereabouts are you? I would look into an emergency or temporary nanny and give this one notice - check the contract for notice especially given she also lives with you

It does sound like sitting down with her and deciding on a structure for her day would be a good idea.
I'd probably expect an hour in the morning and an hour early afternoon would be reasonable, so she's there for childcare from 4.30.
If that doesn't work for you maybe you need a different person, who works say 12.30-6.30 to do some housework and then childcare after school. If you could manage to cover the morning school drop off yourselves?

She's absolutely taking the piss.
A one hour lunch break is reasonable but in that time she cooks and eats her meal, not cooking for 45 minutes beforehand and then having another hour free.
You need her to work from 4.30 to 6.15 and in that time she decides she wants to have her dinner. That's very early for dinner time. She's taking the piss there too. She's getting out of doing the very thing she is there to do by taking that as her dinner hour. It would be perfectly reasonable for her to have an afternoon break for 15 minutes or half an hour, at a time to suit you (ie. before your child comes home) and then she has her dinner in her own time after the end of her shift.
If she starts at 6.15am I think it's fair enough that she has a defined breakfast time, again at an appropriate time to suit you, not when you need her for child care. Lunch break of one hour say at 12-13. Half an hour afternoon break and then dinner after her shift is over.

She's taking the piss because she knows it's hard to find a nanny but perhaps you now need to sit down with your partner (before you meet with the nanny) and really decide what help it is that you actually need. Things have changed a lot because your child is now at preschool. Perhaps you don't need a live in nanny anymore but you do need some other kind of support with household tasks and you need childcare for specific times during the day, rather than all day.
Once you've decided with your partner what would be appropriate you can decide whether this nanny/housekeeper can fulfill that role if you redefine her role and she accepts or if other people would be more appropriate and could provide you with better support. I'd be very much inclined to try to find someone else to fulfill the role/roles you need as she sounds very difficult and shouting "no" at you when you asked her to clean a table is completely unacceptable

And after you've made the decisions with your partner, sit down with her and tell her what you have decided.