Child in all day detention for something they didn't do.

[rooby252]

Hi,
I'm just trying to see if this is common practice in secondary schools really.
One of my children was kept in an all day detention for 1.5 days for something that happened after school and he wasn't responsible for.
He was at a bus stop with a few other children from his year group (year 8) and another boy threw a plastic bottle on to the floor. It bounced off the floor. It didn't hit anyone or anything and didn't break.
A teacher apparently saw the incident and saw my son wasn't involved, but the school kept the 4 children in detention for 1.5 days- knowing exactly who had thrown the bottle- waiting to see if the boy responsible would own up.
They missed out on all lessons, just doing work they had already done in year 7.
I feel really angry about it but am thinking this might just be how school do things these days?

No, I wasn't referring to a homework diary. We have a booklet which contains important info, rules, procedures, and has a section for quick handwritten notes about punishment and absences. It works really well. Three years in. It has a protective plastic cover on it, which might be an idea. Re homework the children keep a separate diary for their own use. Homework info is also put online.

We also have an electronic system which is not very user friendly - we can use it for checking teacher input on homework to be done, but that is about it.

It sounds as though the booklet didn't work for you, and the electronic system isn't working for you either. Don't be rude and dismissive of parents - find a system which works.

An oldfashioned note in a booklet is about a million times faster for teachers and for children.

Sorry I meant for teachers and parents

And lo! The notebook with the note about the poor behaviour has mysteriously vanished!

But it was a good description of a homework diary.

That is literally what went into the homework diaries. And they had protective plastic covers - which was quite useful when finding them at the back of the field after rain stopped lunchtime football. No point paying out twice for supplies and then still having the inevitable human element.

The electronic system cuts down on a lot of unnecessary angst and hassle for everybody, as there's none of the issues inherent with ensuring compliance and cost, but there will still be an element that cannot or will not engage; it's inevitable when you're dealing with human beings.

Your 'suggestion' was to introduce a book (and in my opinion, it was worded in a rude and dismissive manner, as though nobody had ever thought of it before). A homework diary, essentially. Been there, done that, paid out thousands, caused all manner of upset when having to enforce their use. So many schools have invested in an alternative which on the whole, does work better for the vast majority. That doesn't mean that there aren't still difficulties with engagement, though.

If a physical item doesn't solve communications and a digital one still has problems for some, what exactly is there left apart from telepathy?

Are you a teacher, noblegiraffe, fripp? If not, why are you posting?

It is difficult to work out who are teachers and who are not here, but what does come across from some teachers is a profound lack of respect for children and parents.

And that is why there are problems with behaviour, and possibly vanishing books. So it comes down to management. Children naturally want to behave well, get positive feedback, want to learn, want to do well at school work.

You are clearly not a teacher. And perhaps haven't met many children.

Well, I will say it again - what you are doing now is not working, is what you are saying. So you need to find something which works.

Are you a teacher? Same q to @FrippEnos

Research indicates that children do not lie if they are in a safe environment. Are you a teacher?

You must be new. Yes I am a teacher. As is Fripp

And children will lie to get themselves out of trouble. And they will lose notebooks to get themselves out of trouble.

No, research is very clear about this. Children lie when they do not feel they are in a safe environment. Teachers should be aware of child development research.

I am not a teacher.

You think the reason that most children who receive a comment about their bad behaviour on paper from a teacher to take home and show their parent which then “mysteriously vanish” before their parent sees it is due to management and not the most painfully obviously logical explanation that the child doesn’t want their parent to see the comment?

An electronic system means that the parent can see the logged sanction or demerit with hopefully a comment from the teacher about the incident. I agree it’s frustrating as a parent if you only see the sanction and have to rely on your child’s account of what occurred or haven’t had a reason for an isolation communicated to you but this will be a rarity. The vast majority of schools will describe the reason alongside the sanction, even if it’s a brief comment “e.g continually talking over teacher for duration of lesson” or “deliberate vandalisation of display board”.

It’s a win for everyone. It’s easier for a teacher as they can do it for multiple children for the same infraction, they can do it for children who refuse to or are unable to present their handbook, they can log it at a later time when they may not be in the company of the child etc. and it means they do not waste time and the learning of others by doing it in class when they can log it after the lesson. It’s a win for parents as they are guaranteed to see the comment (as long as their email isn’t intercepted by their child) and it’s a win for the child as there is an electronic copy of the comment that every member of staff can see. This is paramount for safeguarding, intervention, patterns of behaviour, record-keeping etc. For things like exclusions or SEND intervention, incidents involving drugs or weapons or assaults, you need evidence of historic and logged incidents every time.

EDITED: In fact, the more I think about it, I’m pretty sure an electronic log/communication of the misbehaviour over paper has to be a legal requirement. If all behavioural infractions were communicated on paper, there would be no record kept about what was said to parents or a list of all the incidents that had occurred. The school and the police have to be able to see all data. How could safeguarding, exclusions, suspensions, prosecutions take place unless recorded electronically? You need a trail. All incidents have to be logged.

Have you considered the possibility that the lack of safety that the child is feeling is the knowledge of the consequences that come from pissing about?

Would you prefer that the child was honest about their poor behaviour because they felt safe as they knew nothing would happen?

Are you 100% sure he had nothing to do with it? It would be very odd for a teacher to sanction children without a very good reason.

What is the situation with the bottle? Are they being accused of littering? or did someone throw a bottle in/ towards the road, that could have caused an accident but luckily did not? Did someone throw a bottle at a passing school bus, that missed and hit the ground and bounced instead? Has this kind of thing been happening after school and the pupils have all been warned about the danger, yet someone was messing around chucking bottles anyway?
All different interpretations of what could have happened according to your son's description.

The idea of writing notes to parents in a booklet is awful. Many children would forget/lose them. Many children would never show their parents (some of my class still have Christmas cards in their bags) and barely any parents would check. I would need to speak to or ring parents as well, negating the time spent writing a note.

@recommends

NobleGiraffe is the headteacher of Mumsnet!! Go to the education board: 90% of threads belong to NobleGiraffe. And what’s more, she knows stuff.

Please train to be a teacher. Your worldview will change the minute you walk into a classroom.

Kids lie because (a) why not? and (b) they don’t want to get into trouble. Consider also the different types of lies: omission, white lies, children can and do lie in millions of ways. They also lie not out of malice, but because their interpretation is clouded by their feelings and perceptions. Either way, schools have to find out what happened (by taking millions of statements…).

Did you see it too ?
If the teachers side of the story says your son wasn't involved I'd totally agree. As what did she expect the ones who didn't throw it to do.
Perhaps ask the teacher directly ..copy the email to head of year and the tutor. Giving your sons version and ask for clarity.

There is no way your child got a detention for asking where the Middle East is or looking at a fly. You must know this is untrue. Your child is doing things that they are not telling you about and then complaining all they did was ask a sensible question because they want to deny any responsibility. This tale is like me saying, ‘the police pulled me over for filling my car with petrol.’

Absolute and utter bullshit of the highest order. I'm a teacher. I work in a really lovely and safe school with unusually well-behaved kids. Guess what - they still lie sometimes.

They only work in schools which already have impeccable behaviour. I worked in an amazing grammar which had a good and bad note system but the parents of the kids there literally offered you sticks to deal with their children’s behaviour - you were viewed as something like a god. In no other school I have worked in would this system have worked AT ALL.

Yup, definitely a teacher, more correctly, currently an ex teacher that may never go back due to the mental health problems that it caused.

And yes children in a safe environment do lie, of course what constitutes a safe environment is subjective, and as soon as a children gets told off or believes that they will get told off it no longer becomes a safe environment.

The same I suspect is true when pupils don't like the teacher and lessons that they don't enjoy, and even in classes that the do enjoy but don't want to do the work in.