To think natural consequences are frustratingly ineffective???

[Motherofrascals]

Or maybe I just have super resilient kids who give zero fucks?

I'm rather environmentally minded. I don't buy much and take care of what I have. I'm trying to teach my children the same values. They're still pretty little (KS1) and absolute whirlwinds with zero observation skills. I have no idea how they can step on stuff and not even seem to notice, I'd definitely be making a donation to the swear jar if I stepped on a hot wheels car barefooted.

Originally I liked the idea of 'natural consequences', ie if you break something and it can't be fixed then we don't have that thing anymore. If you refuse to put on your shoes you get cold feet (we've not ever had this, was just an example I read on here recently), if you delay and delay when I'm trying to get us out of the house then you miss your playdate. However, they genuinely do not care. When they break something through careless/reckless behaviour I don't replace it (example would be a self inflating whoopee cushion they got in a party bag. I said if they treat it too rough it'll break, it did, it went in the bin, noone was even slightly sad despite having played with it non stop for days and giggling like fools every time). If something is a genuine accident then that's a different conversation imo.

At the moment I feel like the only person affected by natural consequences is me. I dislike the waste from broken things, I'm them one uncomfortable being late or cancelling last minute, I wouldn't want them getting sick being outside with no shoes on or having to carry them

They're polite, imaginative, awesome little people in so many ways, and a huge part of me admires that they're so resilient/will make a toy or game out of anything. But this lack of caring about their things/even slightly regretting when something is broken is grating on me. We're not a well off family. We don't have a lot of stuff. I really thought that would mean someone would be motivated to care for what they do have but it doesn't seem to work that way at all.

If they aren't arsed about losing toys, maybe there are too many available. I wish I'd done this when mine were a bit younger (now 7 and 10), but the montessori thing where you rotate toys only keeping a few out at a time and the rest kept away somewhere out of sight and reach might be a good idea.

But I 100% feel your pain wirh natural consequences. Sometimes they worked great for me and other times I can't think what the natural consequence might be eg, I need to go shopping for groceries and they don't want to come along, so what do I say "oh well then we won't get any food this week"? 😂. No.

They dont realise objects have value because they dont have to work to earn money to pay fr things.

Tell them how much value an item has and how long they will have to work to pay to replace it.

Then make them do it!

That's natural consequences

Wow so many replies and such good advice! Thanks all for taking the time. I'm going to favourite this to read again next time I find myself frustrated because kids are being kids.

You're totally right they live in the moment, and that I care more than them. Also that I see the consequences before them (hence moving the cup away from the side and explaining a bunch of times until it was too late) but I can see there are more ways to skin the cat (i.e. I've mentioned this about the cup more than once so it's going to go away until I'm confident you can look after it properly). Really wise words.

Honestly this can be an amazing place sometimes. I'm quite isolated as a parent, don't have matriarchs to turn to, most friends have younger kids. I love that there's this community in my pocket where you can search for a topic or ask a question and get a variety of experiences from people who have been there. It's so valuable and you're all much appreciated by me.

Thanks !

The things that poster described weren't accidents any more than any other examples given on the thread. She was obviously pointing out the absurdity of natural consequences in at least some situations. I certainly would punish a child for running off if they were choosing not to listen to being told to hold an adult's hand or stop at the lamppost or whatever.

Yes there are times when natural consequences don't cut the mustard at all, as well as the times they don't feel like they're cutting it to an adult mind 😅

The thing is, there is a difference between natural consequences and boundaries (hard lines in the sand that are non negotiable).

For example, teeth brushing is a boundary. It must happen, not just wait for the "natural consequences " or rotting teeth and painful/uncomfortable medical interventions to fix it. However, if they're not brushing their teeth because of x (playing/devices/whatever) then x gets removed or their time isn't their own until x,y,z is done because they can't manage it properly.

Same with running in the road. Absolute no no, and the natural consequence isn't being run over. It's holding hands/being in the pram(if young enough) or reins or whatever since they can't be trusted.

It's boundaries that create habits , consequences are to teach them to think twice (which can take a long time , simply due to child development).

Kids aren't in charge because they don't have capacity to understand their decisions. If you carry on with natural consequences you'll never get them to school.

You're the adult and you're in changing of managing their time. It's absolutely fine to confiscate stuff if they are going to break it or tell them they need to play gently if you care about it.

You know that you don't need to sign up to namby pamby parenting? You're allowed to decide the rules.

I think it’s a very tall order to expect kids of this age to forward think this much, especially environmentally.

Honestly I think many of these parenting approaches (not all) are mainly designed so the parent has some tactic to use, not that they actually work. Kids largely are who they are. Having twins who are parented the same but polar opposites in temperament and personality has taught me that.

Forgot to add that kids need both.

Ime natural consequences work better for teenagers. With much smaller children it needs to be something they will miss for it to be effective. If ours destroyed things deliberately, they helped mend it, or else replaced it with their pocket money. If it was an accident then that's totally different. Consequences have never really worked with our youngest though, but she's ND. She knows right from wrong but sometimes seems unable to control her reactions. If anything, I wish she'd care a little less when things get lost or broken (seriously, she's inconsolable and even struggles to let go of old toys and clothes to charity shops etc). At 8 she's turning out just fine using other methods of behaviour modification.

Remember that you getting angry/upset is also a natural consequence and that will teach your children thier actions have consequences. I think it's much healthier to show a bit of anger (and I do mean a bit, nothing crazy) compared to calmly putting your child on a "naughty step" like a psychopath. When sitting on a step has nothing to do with the behaviour you're punishing. That's my interpretation of natural consequences, it's like showing your child you're human and thier behaviour has an impact on you instead of doing supernanny's mad ideas.

Also in future I just wouldn't let them have China mugs.

This, exactly. Lots of misunderstandings of natural consequences here. Of course no one that uses natural consequences just shrugs and lets their child die in the road. You can run in the road, so either you choose to behave sensibly, or if that's too tricky (whether through choice or developmental stage) then the parent intervenes to keep you safe. The natural consequence of not behaving safely is the intervention to keep you safe (constant hand holding/reins/not going places you want to etc depending on age).

OP, I think you also need to pick battles. So if your kids are still young, I would intervene to stop breakages of some things before they can happen (eg precious things out of reach).

Yes, kids have to care about the consequences. My kids once repeatedly ignored my requests to stop doing something silly in the living room one morning as ot was clear it would end up with something getting broken. A household item did get broken.

I then told them we couldn't go out to the cafe we were planning to visit because I had to spend the lunch money on replacing the item they had broken.

They didn't do it again.

Absolutely this. Or, if you like, the "natural consequence" is that Mummy gets really cross with them and they are sufficiently scared of that happening to be more careful in the future. What used to be called "parenting".

Probably shouldn't bite but...

Sometimes I wish there was a way that people who think that parents who are trying non aggressive/violent/extreme ways of parenting their children is 'namby pamby' could be paired with those who were trying it for a day just so they could see how the other half live. Perhaps it's just a jargon thing. Maybe my natural consequences is just a buzz word that irks others and we actually parent really similarly, but because I've used this phrase that the internet have paired with the dreaded 'gentle parenting' it comes across like I'm a pushover.

What I'm not doing

• naughty steps
• time outs
• screaming /raising my voice outside of moments when there's an actual threat

-.physical punishment

• shaming or ranting

I think theres a lot of middle ground between the lack of the above and namby pamby' parenting.

The most helpful comments have really been about this being a marathon not a sprint, and about actually cutting consequences off at the pass. Parenting would be so much easier if you only had to say 'if you keep leaving that cup from uncle x near the edge of the table it's going to break' once and they were instantly responsible people who remembered the advice, but that's unrealistic. So instead it's the long, exhausting road of repetition 😴plus actually being more proactive in removing things which aren't being looked after. The same way as you would say 'i can see you're having trouble not playing by this busy road so im going to hold your hand so i know you're safe'. Rather than 'you're acting like an idiot and there's busy traffic so I'm holding your hand until you quit acting like a baby'. It's more about not shaming them, I was often called 'silly' or 'stupid girl', as well as being smacked or similar and it affected my opinions of myself. Something I'd rather avoid for the next generation. So when they break something I don't call them names, or get cross. Trying something different.

As soon as I go to write these messages all my real life examples seem to run straight out of my head!!

The 'they didn't do it again' is absolutely the bit I'm missing 🤔 so something not adding up. Thanks for sharing your example!

It sounds like you parent in a very similar way to me, OP. I think some of it comes with age. So at 4/5 my DS wasn’t that fussed by “if it gets broken it isn’t being replaced.” Now at 8, he is. And now he’s older, the consequence is spelled out more to him in the broader sense - so for example, a chair got broken in the living room because he was jumping on it, after being asked not to repeatedly, and the likely outcome being explained.

I’m a bit strapped for cash, so I explained - calmly, but making it clear I was very upset and disappointed- that the cost of the repair, would mean we wouldn’t be able to do our monthly “treat” day out in order to pay for it- which did drive the message home and jumping on furniture is now (with one or two forgetful moments!) not happening.

Sadly this is also a “punishment” for me- because I look forward to that shared treat!- but I do strongly feel that this way of parenting is likely to teach him the best life lessons.

Time outs don’t really teach anything IMO, if out of context. Taking things away feels random and spiteful (unless it’s linked to a specific consequence, eg not showing care for that item). Excessive shouting (I don’t mean the odd shout, I mean continuous shouting) and smacking just read to me as vengeful. They’re not disciplining a child- they’re symptoms ofundisciplined adults showing they can’t control their emotions! So natural consequences is what’s left 🤷‍♀️

But you do have to be consistent, willing to put the time into explaining, able to control the often understandable initial instinct to go nuclear, and you do have to follow through and hold the boundary - even when it’s inconvenient. I don’t think that that’s namby pamby at all!

The thing is, I wouldn't do either of those road examples. I take a 3 step approach. Fun mummy glosses over it, instructional mummy sets a behaviour wxpectation and consequence, possibly a follow up reminder if its minor. Parent mummy resolves the matter.

For the road, I would first try and just make a game of walking in a straight line, or, if it was coming up tona big road, I'd be getting down to explain why its important to walk safely now and explain that we are going to the park or whatever so they know when the next opportunity to run and play is. If there was no result, I would have been down on the level, saying that I need to be really clear about what the behaviour expectation is and it isn't a choice. If they don't do it, they will be carried/go home depending what's in your remit.

And i would have taken the nice cup in a similar 3 step approach as the road.

1. Whoops, let's move this here so it doesn't get broken. Fun mummy.
2. X, I've asked you to keep the cup in the middle of the table please so that it doesn't get knocked over and break, please move it back or it will need to go away. Instructional mummy.
3. Mummy takes cup and swaps it with opening don't care about. Parent mummy.

I have never been nasty or aggressive to my child. Time out is a perfectly reasonable consequence of refusing to listen. I have seen plenty of soft parenting where the child ends up bouncing on sofas because parents won't remove them from the situation and saying no thank you doesn't get through.

I'd be classed as a gentle parent but again I have hard lines, you don't hold my hand walking alongside a main road and start messing around then will have to use a wrist strap to keep you safe. To me taking steps like that is a natural consequence, it's the natural steps I need to take to keep my child safe, it isn't natural to me to allow my child to be hurt so I will restrict freedom. If things are at risk following warnings it's natural for me to remove them to protect them not to let them get damaged. I don't shout, I just state what will happen and then leave DC to work it out.

Showing anger or disappointment is a natural consequence- that doesn't have to involve yelling or violence but can include calmly explaining your own feelings.

These threads are always frustrating in that most people don’t seem to know what natural means and describe imposing a consequence as natural. Some have given good examples of natural consequences but they are the minority.

And, also, although there are far too many weak and overindulgent parents around, no one on these threads will admit to being one of them! But you only need to look at the ‘teenage’ and ‘parenting’ threads to see the results of having no consequences or lame ones.

How many here would like schools to have ‘natural consequences’? If a pupil doesn’t pay attention, they are just allowed to miss the lesson content. No homework, natural consequence is fail your GCSEs.

What also jumps out from these threads are the instinctively brilliant parents, who just seem to do the right things without too much thought. But there are different parents and different children and, if you are not amazing instinctively, parenting can be learned, and involves paired explanations of why something isn’t good to do and the consequences of not doing it.

As an ex second career teacher, I know I started off way too soft and got walked all over. But I had both good mentors and an ability to reflect so, after a couple of years, I had excellent behaviour management skills. There were some teachers who were just amazing instinctively, but 95% aren’t like that (including me) and I think the same goes for parenting. There were also terrible teachers who were either so soft nothing ever got learned or ranted ineffectually with the same effect. But most good teachers do shout from time to time and do get upset. It is the fact that it is rare that makes it an effective tool. And they aren’t frightened to give detentions when necessary.

In summary, natural consequences have a place amongst a toolkit of behaviour management tools but they certainly don’t work in isolation. And we should all be reflective parents, but not beat ourselves up for either losing it or being too soft.

Yep. These are just rules and boundaries.

Natural consequences is one of those things that might work with some kids but doesn’t sound like it’s working here for your children or you. It sounds like a lot of pressure to put on kids to think like that, maybe when they’re older? Most children need structure and discipline (discipline isn’t a dirty word - we are our children’s guide). If you’ve not been to an event you’ve had tickets for because Billy isn’t getting ready on time then he’s potentially missing out on something that could have been awesome for him. If DD had her way she’d be a couch potato and no amount of gentle parenting is gently getting her out of that. But when we push her to do an activity, the smile on her face when she’s climbed the hill or exploring a forest is worth it. We want to protect our kids but we should be pushing them and not giving them the burden of adult decision-making.

Every kid is different. My DD10 likes the freedom to decide what order she gets ready for school. She has a visual chart of what she needs to do and as long as it’s done by the time the timer goes off I don’t care what order she chooses to do it. She has the freedom to develop planning skills without us nagging every step of the way but the endgame is the same. If she’s not ready on time, unless there’s a good reason, she doesn’t get devices after school and in the evening. She doesn’t argue with it as it’s non-negotiable. It’s not a natural consequence, it’s a parent consequence because it’s my job to get her ready for life and help her help herself.

I’m sorry your Mum spoke to you that way and I understand why you don’t want to pass that on. Try not to go too far the other direction, which is sounds like you’re not as you are here, reflecting.

I worked through a lot of stuff by forgiving my parents for the anger and abuse growing up. It allowed me to reset with my daughter and stop parenting with so much reflection that I was avoiding my parents style and just focusing on who I am and who she is, and building from there. Try to hit reset on your childhood (I had to see a therapist to do that) and create space to be me and treat my parenting situation as my own. You know your kids best so vibe with what works for them but don’t be afraid to put your foot down. Problem is when you’ve been abused you haven’t always seen the best parenting and it’s so hard to know what to do. Relax, don’t overthink it. You have the right intentions. Just sit back and little and give yourself space to work out what you want to do and build that instinct you need to parent your kids your way. Not your parents way. Not a parenting method way. But stepping up to do what’s needed for your family. And you can only do that if you look after yourself and your inner child first. You’re not crap, you’re not the things your mother called you. Ask your husband and kids the top three things they like about you and believe them. Good luck xxx

I think you also need to think about will the consequence be linked to the behaviour in their minds? They are still little so if you planned a nice day out you have conceptualised it, but they may only really understand that they are being expected to get ready and get in the car. So they don't feel the consequence. Whereas if they were playing up once you got there you might give several warnings and then follow through and go home early. That's clearer.

Similarly delayed consequences make less sense when kids are small. Tomorrow is too far away to link properly.

I also wonder can you do some positive behaviour stuff. So, yes as a treat you can use Mummy's special mug. Let's sit at the table, hold it with two hands etc to look after it. It's very easy to get into a 'don't' loop.

I do love the days when I have the energy to be fun mummy, but none of this parenting comes naturally to me so it gets very tiring. Feel like I'm constantly having to put on an act of some sort as my natural persona is very much 'sweating the small stuff'. Definitely more of a 4 step approach here as there are also days all my best intentions go out the window and dragon mummy is in charge. Serious kudos to you and all who are trying it. Fun mum is very effective. It's amazing how much more cooperative my eldest is when I pretend he's a robot in need of rewiring because I'm not getting the results I want. Enjoying that these things work whilst I can, but don't always have the energy/headspace to find the fun option despite knowing it's effectiveness.