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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think the 2 tier GCSE system is wrong

237 replies

countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:06

My dd is in year 11 and will be doing her GCSEs in June. There has been some discussion on whether she would be sitting the higher levels or not - she's borderline on most. I have only just realised that you can't get lower than a grade 4 if you take the higher paper - if you do badly you don't get a grade 1,2 or 3 but are simply ungraded. But if she takes the foundation level she can't access the higher grades.

This means children are having to take a gamble with their papers. I would have thought the higher level would just add an additional paper or layer - not that you risked losing a GCSE altogether if you had a bad day.

Can anyone rationalise this for me?

OP posts:
Garedenhelp · 16/01/2025 23:12

I agree having the same dilemma with my year 11 son. It has always been this way even when I sat my gcses.

Like you say on the face of it it doesn't seem too hard to have the questions getting progressively harder as the paper goes.

I have also been told that the reading level in the higher papers (sciences) is much harder than the foundation, which is swaying us towards foundation for my dyslexic son , so take that into consideration for your daughter too.

morbideveningthoughts · 16/01/2025 23:13

They do it so that children do not have to sit through an excessively lengthy exam. The ones who can do it all will either be exhausted or will have lost focus by the end. And it’s not ideal for the ones who can only do the minimum to be faced with a paper they have no hope of completing.

It’s not a gamble, the teachers know the pupils well and enter them for the appropriate tier.

Original poster
countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:14

Thank you. I'm new to this and feel I should have known. My daughter is very uncommunicative about how she's doing and we don't have long to decide.
But I'm just in shock atm that it is the way it is - seems unfair.

OP posts:
Elizo · 16/01/2025 23:15

It is really tricky. But I think the difference in a 5 at foundation snd a 9 is immense. So not sure how they would cover the higher material. My school made me do foundation maths way back and my mark was so high the exam board gave me a b. I don’t think it works like that now. If your child is unlikely to get more than a 5 foundation definitely safer (assuming higher grade not needed)

Chipshopninja · 16/01/2025 23:15

I did my GCSEs in 2000 and this was the case even then

Not a new thing. But I agree it's not ideal for those who are middle of the road

Original poster
countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:16

@morbideveningthoughts
Thank you, that does make sense. But I don't see why someone entered for the higher who does badly will end up with a U rather than a 1 or 2 if they get enough marks for the lower grades.

OP posts:
Original poster
countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:17

I was the first year of GCSEs - they were still working it out.

OP posts:
Original poster
countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:20

I think the main problem is her performance can be quite patchy. She does have some SN and will sometimes do well and sometimes lose focus and do next to nothing.

We may as well go back to O-Levels and CSEs if there are 2 tiers!

OP posts:
MayaPinion · 16/01/2025 23:20

Yes, my DS was in the ‘main’ maths stream but had a bit of a mental burst at the end of year 1 of his GSCEs (mainly due to his excellent teacher). He was told that it was too late to put him in higher set but was capable of it. In year 11 he was easily doing (max he could achieve) grade 5 work and achieved a very high 5 at GCSE. He was never going to become a mathematician but arguably he could have achieved a grade 6 with a bit of a push.

ShamblesRock · 16/01/2025 23:20

The science teacher advised us last year that it was better for him to 'ace' the foundation paper and get a 5, then risk the higher and potentially end up with a 4.

A 5 is 'easier' on a foundation paper than a higher paper.

Elizo · 16/01/2025 23:23

countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:20

I think the main problem is her performance can be quite patchy. She does have some SN and will sometimes do well and sometimes lose focus and do next to nothing.

We may as well go back to O-Levels and CSEs if there are 2 tiers!

Have they got mock results? You could get them to do a past paper on higher/ foundation see how it comes out. Also, what do they think? Sometimes the child has a pretty clear insight into what would be best

MargaretThursday · 16/01/2025 23:23

Used to be 3 tiers in maths.
Lowest the highest you could get was an E.(could get G in those days) They did paper 1&2
Middle was E through to C They did papers 2 & 3
Higher was C and above. They did papers 3 & 4.

Dm taught several who were doing lower level and hoping to get a G. They would be able to attempt about half the questions on the lowest paper and that was a struggle. They would have been looking At getting under 10 marks on the paper 2. Some of them 5 was a good score.
At the other end of the scale there would have been a good number of people expecting to get 99+% on papers 3 & 4.

To put those into the same paper you'd have had a paper that the lower end would hardly have been able to do a question.

morbideveningthoughts · 16/01/2025 23:23

countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:16

@morbideveningthoughts
Thank you, that does make sense. But I don't see why someone entered for the higher who does badly will end up with a U rather than a 1 or 2 if they get enough marks for the lower grades.

There is an overlap to account for pupils who underperform, but if a pupil underperforms by two or more grades I’d guess they’d probably want to re-sit anyway, so it makes little odds whether the pupil with grade 5 ability gets a 2 or a U?

MoonKiss · 16/01/2025 23:24

This isn’t true for all subjects / boards. I have seen grades 2 and 3 on GGSE certificates for last year (AQA)

Thegoatliesdownonbroadway · 16/01/2025 23:25

Weren't GCSE's a merger of GCE O levels and CSE? There have always been 2 levels of attainment, with a degree of overlap in the middle. In my day, a CSE grade 1 was worth a grade 'C' O level. So what's changed?

Original poster
countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:26

@MayaPinion
My dd's school don't seem to have made the final decisions yet for this year's exams. Which suggests they are getting the same teaching for both levels atm.

OP posts:
StrawberrySquash · 16/01/2025 23:27

morbideveningthoughts · 16/01/2025 23:13

They do it so that children do not have to sit through an excessively lengthy exam. The ones who can do it all will either be exhausted or will have lost focus by the end. And it’s not ideal for the ones who can only do the minimum to be faced with a paper they have no hope of completing.

It’s not a gamble, the teachers know the pupils well and enter them for the appropriate tier.

Edited

I had some exams where everyone did the foundation and then you did one or both of the two higher papers if it was likely to be worth it. So no one fell off the bottom. Yes, it meant more volume of exam, but the brighter end probably aren't having to work too hard on the foundation paper.

sausageupanalley · 16/01/2025 23:28

My DC is the same, on the borderline and had been in a higher paper maths set until just before Xmas. After discussion between me, him and his teacher he's been moved to a foundation paper set. Confidence wise and enjoyment of school wise, he is so much happier as he actually understands the maths lessons now and is doing well. Scraping by in the higher class was not good for him and I'd rather he had a good broad understanding of basic maths than knowing some harder bits which possibly squeezes out a higher grade. Hopefully he'll get the 5 he needs now...

morbideveningthoughts · 16/01/2025 23:28

Maybe somebody who is good at statistics can answer this.
As grades 4/5 will presumably be around the mean in a normal distribution curve, does it follow that there will be more questions aimed at around this level, so the likelihood of significantly over or underperforming in the middle of the grade range is reduced?
(I am crap at maths myself, and sat the lower tier GCSE, so please enlighten me if this question is a load of bollocks!!)

Original poster
countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:29

morbideveningthoughts · 16/01/2025 23:23

There is an overlap to account for pupils who underperform, but if a pupil underperforms by two or more grades I’d guess they’d probably want to re-sit anyway, so it makes little odds whether the pupil with grade 5 ability gets a 2 or a U?

Show quote history

If you get mostly 4s and 5s you maybe wouldn't re-sit a U if it wasn't a core subject but it would mean a fewer number of GCSEs overall.
If you had a 2 or 3 you could still count it on your CV.

OP posts:
Moglet4 · 16/01/2025 23:29

countingdaysuntilretirement · 16/01/2025 23:06

My dd is in year 11 and will be doing her GCSEs in June. There has been some discussion on whether she would be sitting the higher levels or not - she's borderline on most. I have only just realised that you can't get lower than a grade 4 if you take the higher paper - if you do badly you don't get a grade 1,2 or 3 but are simply ungraded. But if she takes the foundation level she can't access the higher grades.

This means children are having to take a gamble with their papers. I would have thought the higher level would just add an additional paper or layer - not that you risked losing a GCSE altogether if you had a bad day.

Can anyone rationalise this for me?

This is why the intermediate paper needs to make a return.

KnickerlessParsons · 16/01/2025 23:30

It does seem odd that they did away with the old O Level v CSE system with one exam sat by everyone (GCSE) to then stealthily reintroduce the two exam system by another name.

pizzaHeart · 16/01/2025 23:31

You can get 3 in Higher in Maths, you can’t get 1 and 2 only.

Seashor · 16/01/2025 23:31

It’s always been like this and rightly so. It’s ridiculous to suggest that a level 4 child should be sitting a paper designed for level 9 students, they are poles apart.
Far from being‘unfair’ it’s trying to make things fairer. Download past papers and see for yourself.

dancinfeet · 16/01/2025 23:34

this was the case when I did my gcse’s in 1993- certainly for maths, science and language subjects.