To be completely shocked by this - Bridget can’t tell us the impact of the government’s VAT on Education?

[Sasskitty]

Bridget Phillipson dodges question on impact of private school tax raid

As parents and schools complain of chaos, Ms Phillipson refuses to spell out details of the assessment made by the department for education

Bridget Phillipson failed to spell out the full impact of the government’s private school VAT raid, dodging the question when asked about the possible implications for special education schools.

While she said the government has “looked at all of the potential impacts”, her answer failed to provide any real detail on the expected consequences.

It comes as parents and schools complain about the implications of the tax raid, which came into force on New Year’s Day and is expected to raise £1.5bn for the Treasury.

YABU - Bridget Phillipson has it all in hand. She just didn’t feel like answering the pesky question. The point is to piss rich people off. Leave Labour alone, they want nothing but erm oh I’m not sure.

YANBU - Phillipson clearly has no idea what the impact of VAT on Education will be. Nor does she really care as long as she’s seen to be punishing those horrible rich people. Or even better (it seems) the not really rich ones just trying to improve the education of their children as the available state schools were not suitable.

https://apple.news/AO7fcmrzuRaik4stLaPQxwA

(sorry paywall but there’s not much more in the article)

PS. I’ve removed the poll tally, no one needs to see real data. Do they?

“The conference will also hear how the department plans to use tech to transform outcomes for vulnerable pupils, breaking down the barriers to opportunity for all. For the first time, all new teachers will be trained on the effective use of assistive technology to support children with special educational needs and disabilities. Evidence shows that using readily-available, low-cost technology – such as dictation tools or text to speech software – is a key part of high-quality teaching for SEND pupils. But only 13% of teachers received training on accessibility features between 2021 and 2023. “

SEND hubs and kids on screens?

Assistive technology. Not AI babysitting. It’s available if you need reasonable adjustments at work too. Anything that better meets the needs of children with ALN/disability has to be considered.

Of course AI should be used, but it is not going to save money or staff who need training and also need to supervise the kids using it and so the costs with it, will be greater, not less.
There are schools that have trialled screen use and it requires a lot of supervision, especially with teens. It requires servers to shut down and ban websites and all sorts! And most state schools simply do not have an extensive IT department, do they? It is just another pie in the sky. It sounds great but it will cost more, not less!

https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/special-educational-needs-in-england

It sounds to me like 110k SEND in independent education represents quite a similar percentage to state education, of overall number? Around 18.4 per cent?

Just proof that the independent sector is far more of a wider reflection of society than Labour care to admit?
It is what I would have expected. If one were to make assumptions that would translate to at least 30000 entitled to an EHC? Anyone else care to comment?

‘And I’ve said if there was VAT on music lessons, I’d pay it if I could afford it and go without the lessons if not.’

As with anything! You can’t afford it - then Seek an alternative or don’t use the service or buy the thing! Not sure why private school parents think they should be the exception to the rule in this…

They are literally making private school parents the exception to the rule. No other private lessons, clubs or education is being taxed. Why is that? Why are non-doms being allowed to hide the billions and not pay any tax instead?

@Letlooseonthedanse - please engage with the actual discussion which is the 110k SEND DC in the independent sector. We know just over 4000 will have VAT not applied? Is that correct? However, logically there is a figure between the 4000-110000 which really is unlikely to thrive in most state education. And someone has to figure that number out.
The remaining 110k if they move or a larger than expected percentage moves to state schools, then it won’t just cost the state 7.5k per pupil on average because those schools will be expected to top up the difference up to 6k per child.
These are not figures the Treasury can just ignore and wish away.
And looking to future years, if the private sector is no longer going to take roughly 18% of 600000k pupils with SEND anymore, again, there is a cost. They need to work it out. The burden is on the Treasury, not the other way round. Which they will soon find out in the court case, one would assume.

Regarding the exemption for US military personnel using British private schools, now what are the German and French diplomats using their schools going to say? Was there not a big row about that one too? Sounds like we are going to end up with more and more and more exemptions… what a mess.

1. Not every child with SEN in private school will be there specifically because they have SEN/because they have SEN and have no option but to be privately educated.
2. Not every child with SEN will be forced out of their private school by the introduction of VAT. As previously said, nobody knows the numbers but they are unlikely to be statistically significant.
3. There will be no court case!

You’re not interpreting statistics in any meaningful way, nor have you provided a link to the statistics you’re quoting (just to the site you’ve used) or explained why you’ve reached the conclusions you have. So what is the point?

@ChallahPlaiter - the ISC have provided statistics. They were quoted on numerous threads. Some are here www.isc.co.uk/media/uukn4r3i/isc_census_2024_15may24.pdf

There is a judicial review court case coming up, where the Treasury have to put forward a defence. That is an actual fact. It was confirmed to be expedited on 17 January. So I suspect April 2025?

Oh right. That’s not exactly the same as a court case though. It’s a procedure.
What chance do you feel there is of the government abandoning the policy as a result?

https://www.judiciary.uk/how-the-law-works/judicial-review/

Million dollar question @ChallahPlaiter and certainly not available for free on the internet.

I’m not with you.

Judicial review isn’t for judging the rights and wrongs of a policy. It’s about whether the decision was correctly made in the first place.

Are there grounds to think this is the case? If so, what are the implications on the policy coming into law?

Instead of nit picking about how many children with SEN will have their education interrupted, surely we should all agree that children with SEN should be exempt from these changes?

This could simply be achieved by making special private schools exempt from vat, and not adding vat to fees for children with SEN.

It's very common for sen children to be educated in the private sector, simply because there is woefully inadequate state provision. It's not a choice for these families, as no suitable places exists in the state sector.

Read up on it. Lots of info on Internet. You've come on a thread to comment about something you have no clue about but have an opinion based on stereotypes and assumptions

My disabled child wasn’t offered a mainstream state education. I dearly wish he had been. Our choice was either for me to leave my job to homeschool him, or to send him to a private school for several years until the LA agreed that he needed to be in a specialist school. Even the specialist was private, because the LA couldn’t offer a suitable state specialist option. But it took us years and tens of thousands of pounds to get to that point. If we had ‘broad shoulders’ (to quote Bridget) then, we certainly don’t now.

I am not the only one on these threads who entered the private sector because no state option was provided.

So just because you can't afford it, we should add extra tax to those who see the value? Who are already paying for state schools through other taxation. Why not just ban them altogether?!

Oh, I’m with you on the non-doms.

Actually, I can afford it. I just don’t see the value in having my children educated in elitists institutions. I don’t think I’d like the other parents much for starters…
There are plenty of families who could afford fees but have chosen not to use private schools.
So, use private schools if you like, but if you can’t afford it now that tax breaks are going then Perhaps try a cheaper school? Or a free school?

So you don't believe in university?
You also probably don't agree with the London elite state schools + grammar schools? How about dance, drama and arts schools? State boarding schools?
Please define elitist.

You definitely aren't. My child struggled for many years in a state school. I was begging the school for support for her. She was rarely in the classroom, non-verbal at school, and would growl and throw objects.

Eventually her school asked her to leave, which was the best thing they had done. A private school was the only option for her specific needs. We are hoping for a state special school for secondary but it's so hard to get a space there, as there is so much demand for the few places they have.

“Instead of nit picking about how many children with SEN will have their education interrupted, surely we should all agree that children with SEN should be exempt from these changes?”

@Wonderberry - the thing is that is what I had been arguing for since these threads started, because in my mind that would have been simplest and also not risked breaching the Human Rights Act.

It seems likely that the Treasury concluded the VAT policy is not workable with such a wide exemption as the private schools would be able to claim too much VAT back (as on average something like 18% of DCs have SEND).
So instead they chose to risk breaching the Human Rights Act, which in my mind, is bonkers. Because I really cannot see how a Labour Party could continue politically with something that would be a breach of that Act.

What’s your understanding of how VAT on private school fees breaches the Human Rights Act?

The issue is that Labour were previously advised by Lord Pannick that it would breach HRA under ECHR so they didn't pursue the policy. Now they are facing that same lawyer in court.
The 3 legal cases are: SEN, single sex + religion. Then there is a separate Scottish legal challenge.
Lord Pannick is highly experienced in this so he is the right lawyer to be heading the challenges.