To think the call back into the office is an example of the patriarchy very much alive and well?

[Yestttlo]

And anyone who thinks otherwise is either brainwashed by the patriarchy or isn’t a mother with a huge proportion of child related responsibility on her shoulders? (Or someone who is in a job where they can’t work from home so don’t want to support other women having the right to).

I have worked from home since covid. Been in the office eight times where it was necessary, for instance a company away day or face to face client meeting. I have a young dc and the call back to the office will damage my career progression due to time spent travelling which means I can’t be online longer and because I will be stretched to get household stuff done .. no I don’t mean I clean the toilets during work hours but that I can put a wash on first thing and know I can unload it at lunch, or get cooking done for the evening during my lunch break which means my evening is not chaotic and I can actually rest a little before starting in full force again the next day.

I will be fighting it to the very end. I will make my views clear. I strongly believe that forcing people into offices hugely disproportionately affects women. My work can be done anywhere. Forcing back into offices is a neon sign that the patriarchy is alive and well. Thoughts?

Can we move past this lazy nonsense about ‘extroverts’? What Mn means by ‘introvert’ is almost always ‘socially maladroit or lazy’ or ‘misanthropic’. I see no reason why workplaces should reorganise themselves for the benefit of those who, barring diagnosed additional needs, are unable to function professionally around other people.

MN includes a variety of views and when I say introvert I mean introvert.

Not sure where the heck you got lazy from? Never heard anyone associate introversion with laziness. Very telling that you would say that.

Again, my point still stands that most workplaces are definitely tailored towards extroverts.

“Re-organising themselves” - every workplace has laptops nowadays and is set up for remote working. So they don’t need to do much other than let people continue as they have been doing for years.

No, most people cope.
It is called organisation.

I agree that it makes childcare easier. Obviously, it is much more difficult for single parents.

As repeatedly said on MN if you are doing it all you have a DP problem.

Yes, that's why I said it's not specifically a WFH issue.

However, if you insist that your job only requires a computer and internet connection, and that any real life interaction with your colleagues is an imposition on your precious time, then I would say your job is one of those first in line for replacement by AI.

It's not patriarchy. I know of several examples at a multinational bank where divorced men with part time child care responsibilities are an almost protected category - it's accepted that they are just unproductive headcount who cannot be made redundant. And I have that directly from the HR Director. Same happening for men as for women - several of them also considered quasi "protected but useless" because they wfh whilst doing childcare. It only came up in conversation because they were men.
It's a fact though that if you take your career seriously and want to progress, you can't be at home all the time. You have to be going above and beyond.

Actually, the bigger issue is one of disability discrimination. Lockdown proved that people who were disabled were just as capable, but now that's been forgotten. I think it's appalling.

As an introvert I think the wfh is better for extroverts.

As an introvert, I could quite happily be curled up at home 24/7 and very rarely miss seeing people. And I would have no impetus to go out and meet other people. The longer I didn't, the harder it would be to step out.

An extrovert will almost certainly make their own way to meeting other people face to face so won't have that issue.

Imo i feel that working hybrid is the way forward. I do 3 days in/2 at home. I do personally feel having a link to the office and seeing colleagues in person is productive. Yes i spend most of my time talking when in the office, catching up etc but it builds relationships. I enjoy days wfh but find it can be lonely.

however, your personal circumstances should not be taken into consideration. Whether you have kids or not, your employed to do a job.

If you have a disability and can show that you can do the job just as well from home, you have the right to put in a flexible working request which will likely be accepted.

That doesn't mean that everyone gets to WFH so they can 'pop on a wash' and do the school run on their employer's time.

What about if - introvert or extrovert - it was irrelevant? That you literally couldn't manage it? That this "we're in it together" propaganda peddled during covid was just that - propaganda. And, actually, for many people lockdown and health uncertainty didn't come to a close in 2021. I had hoped that the pandemic had taught people something, but ultimately it hasn't. People have very short memories. WFH often isn't a choice - not just because of motherhood - but because it physically isn't a choice. Disabled people don't want to be on benefits - they're terrible - and they often have so much to offer. That's what should be being discussed.

I can’t possibly know what you mean by ‘introvert’. What is generally meant by ‘introvert’ on Mn is almost never in any way accurate, and covers a variety of largely unrelated traits like ‘poor social skills’, ‘social anxiety’, ‘misanthropy’ and ‘I prefer not to ever get out of my pyjamas or leave my own four walls’. Which are all fine. You do you, obviously. But there’s no reason why a workplace should need to accommodate your preference for avoiding other people.

Without sounding patronising - and I genuinely mean this - that's not how it works. Discrimination exists from the off. People want people in the office from day one. You can't physically attend an interview? Managers want you to be on-site? The flexible working request might be accepted IF you develop the disability while already working but forget about progression. Discrimination exists. It really does.

If I ring HMRC and can hear a washing machine going, an Amazon delivery arriving or kids TV playing, I imagine a manager can to.

I support the flexibility of hybrid working for everyone that can. I also support the business in making a, not unreasonable, request that employees are physically present as required.

If you literally can’t do your job, then you will have to leave it and find another one. The lockdowns were an artificial situation. It makes absolutely no sense to think that because something was the case temporarily because of a set of reasons that are now irrelevant, a workplace would not revert to the old order. I don’t see the relevance of disabilities to this. A disabled person has certain rights and protections. Not wanting to return to office-based work isn’t a disability.

But if the job is office based, at least part of the time, and if the potential employee cannot physically be present in the office, then that is not discrimination.

That explains alot Thank you 👍

It's not not wanting to, is it? It's not being able to. Lockdown proved in many industries you could WFH. If you can't see the relevance of lockdown - a situation which effectively test drove a model - then I can't help you. Your comment is ableist and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

This thread has made me nostalgic for all the offices/ organisations I've worked in and many of the people I've worked with. Starting with Tony, the lovely editor 30 years old than me who taught me much of what he knew in the three years I worked for him, arriving as the rookiest rookie in my first job. I had no idea how valuable it was, but it enabled me to walk into my next job a few years later and look like I knew what I was doing. I had fantastic nights out with Ashley and Jan and Felicia and Tim and Frank and innumerable others. I ended up sharing a flat with a colleague called Simon, went on art history holidays with Linda from Sales and Marketing, learned so much from so many people. I visited Frank and boyfriend who now live in France a couple of years ago and I'm still in contact with a number of old colleagues, including Tony who is now 87. I wouldn't be who I am without my contact over the years with all of them. I'd probably be a miserable don't-open-the-door-to-anyone-you-don't-know/ never let anyone stay in your home type if I'd worked from home. There is so much to be learned and so many opportunities to be taken when you're in the office.

At our firm, if we're down on hours for 2 months running we get put on a performance plan for improvement. We simply wouldn't get away with slacking, wherever we're working.

Absolutely no-one monitors my time or productivity when I'm working at home. I'm sure that's true for lots of people. I manage a big team and do find occasionally that one (or perhaps two) are not as responsive as they should be and I'm looking at that this year. All the rest are meeting objectives, as I am.

We are currently all in the office at least (mandated) half our working hours as a minimum. I think that should go up a bit to 60/40, for the sake of younger employees who aren't getting the best from themselves or us. And people do need people, lots seem to have forgotten that. They need to see managers and colleagues, and socialise.

I'm also worried about the huge cohort of women working unseen in customer service type roles, and what might happen to those jobs in the future.

If you are able to work from home (& your work is of the same quality )then it should be encouraged. We waste so much time travelling to work (& reducing cars on the road makes a huge difference to the environment and for other commuters during rush hour). I'm a teacher so I can't work from home but my husband does which has been invaluable as he can take the kids to school and between him and his parents they are collected. I've to leave at half 7 so we'd be stuck (or pay a fortune for a childminder) if my husband had to be in the office. It also says people a fortune on petrol, parking, train ticket etc. It just makes sense. I understand the idea of having one or two office days a week as it's beneficial at times to speak in person, get everyone together and also good for some people's mental health but definitely if work can be done at home if should be allowed.

You want women to be able to WFH so that they can continue to take on the majority of the domestic and childcare load, and you somehow think that's the opposite of what the patriarchy wants? I think you're a bit confused.

Totally agree. Not everything can be replicated via Teams 'meetings'. They're OK in some contexts but actual human relationships with colleagues is vital.

A society where people only have planned interactions with people they like is not a healthy one.

I'm confused. Even office-based jobs are calling for people to come in. If someone can't, because of disability - but can still perform to a high standard, why are they being sidelined? Calling for a WFW policy again ignores and ostracises vulnerable people.

Again my point was about agreeing with the posters who stated the dominance of extroverts in the workplace. This is well known. And I certainly am not calling introverts misanthropes or lazy just to be clear!

https://hbr.org/2022/10/stop-telling-introverts-to-act-like-extroverts

So yeah there’s plenty of evidence to show extroverts are rewarded in workplace and anecdotally I’ve definitely seen that. The workplace is set up better for them.

In one job for example we were basically told if we didn’t come out for drinks etc there would be a lack of progression and I saw how some of the more extroverted managers climbed the ladder faster, even if they weren’t actually that great to their junior staff.

Whereas some managers who were more patient and helpful but less into extroversion were sidelined a fair bit. In that same job I asked to WFH a bit more so I could concentrate as it was a very loud office, music, loud talking, constant chatter, drinks in the office on a Friday - they even brought in an office dog 🤦🏽‍♀️ but they were very against WFH except for the most senior staff.

It was like they wanted the more the merrier in the office, even if some of you weren’t feeling very merry about being there. It was all about what extroverts wanted and their vision of a happy team.