Can we do something about William and Charles profiting from the NHS etc ?

[Ukisgaslit]

If You haven’t seen it , the Times and Channel 4 Dispatches programme did some proper old fashioned investigative journalism and revealed how Charles and William via the Duchys are charging schools, the NHS and charities ( some they are patron of!) to use ‘their’ land.
It is not ‘their’ land - it is state land , as the crown estates are. The Duchys were overlooked in 1760 when George 111 handed his holdings over in return for annual handouts from the state - they were overlooked as they were worthless then.
They have made the Windsors billions since the mid 20th century and no corporation tax or capital gains tax paid. William recently refused to continue providing the little financial information that his father offered.

Aside from the obvious fact that the king is in a unique position, being above the law whether we like it or not ( though why is William treated as also above the law?) surely they are humiliated to be revealed as ripping off schools and charities and hospitals?

Where is the Windsor mea culpa and offer to repay with interest? Answer came there none.

So AIBU to expect MPs to please act and fold the Duchys into the crown estate ? The UK is in a weakened state and allowing this feudal greed to continue unchecked diminishes our society further .

thats a hyperbole. at least stick to the topic being discussed please

Does anyone else charge the NHS and charities millions? Or just the RF?

Ah @Soiltypes I get you now .

Its the old ‘ yes we need reform but it’s just too difficult ‘ line
The victorians reformed more then we have .
Whole countries have removed their monarchies and lived to tell the tale . Commonwealth countries are busy removing Charles as head of state as we speak !
Yet transferring the Duchys to the proper oversight of the Crown estate is just ‘too complex’

I don’t think so

@Soiltypes
Hyperbolic or not, it illustrates the weakness of your argument.

@Nanny0gg
answered on previous pages

well the proof is in the pudding, and the political will is not there, same with the majority of the public it seems, personally id prefer the views of royal family academics and historians to give a full detailed and concise essay on whats the best way forward,

What evidence do you have for the views of the majority of the public ?

We have never been asked !
paid for polls don’t count though even they show year on year drops and no sign of a turnaround .

for starters there are no large scale protests about the tax issues of the royal family

I do not think the public will is there yet. But that may change.
We have Andrew's biography out this year. And I do not think William will be a good King.

Don't expect the RF to do anything about it - they don't know the meaning of shame.

The whole point of the Monarchy is it makes fuck all difference if the Monarch is "good" or "bad". They are the Monarch. Appointed and anointed by God Himself.

That is one of the reasons to get shot of them. Along with the fact they consume vast amounts of money and resources whilst actually having fuck all to do with the constitution they are allegedly part of.

@SerendipityJane I agree. I also think if William was a good King, the public will would not be there to change or get rid of the monarchy

Well if he's a bad King the public still get fuck all say in it.

I think that's probably part of the tizz around H&M. A rather dim public who have this deranged belief that somehow what they think matters to the Royal Family, and (repeatedly) finding out it doesn't.

Public views do lead to changes. The public outcry led to Elizabeth voluntarily paying tax. Public outcry has meant that Andrew has never been allowed back into public engagements, in spite of the attempt by the family to rehabilitate him.

This family are ruthless at protecting their own interests. They are a business, and they benefit themselves.
Look at the tax avoidance, the Pandora papers which showed how they lobby ministers to avoid taxes and keep money offshore. There is a complete lack of transparency around their obscene wealth.

As an example
Just last summer ( and before ) Labour said they would remove Charitable status from private schools only to look at the age old origin and formation of many private schools to find out they can’t actually do that.
The logistics just aren’t as easy as some may think and in fact may even go against what is legally possible.

In which case I am of the opinion that we ask for what is possible, such as rent reductions etc

That is true. So they added vat instead to take away the tax advantage of being charities. There are always ways round.

I was simply referring to the fact the legalities of something aren’t as easy as people think, which in itself referred back to the idea of moving the Duchy estate to Crown estate, nothing more.
Adding VAT is a separate issue to the legal status of something.

Moving the Duchy to Crown Estates is not complicated legally though.

how exactly did you come to that conclusion ?

Full Chain Analysis: Why Folding the Duchies Into the Crown Estate is Not Legally Easy
This analysis explores the interconnected legal, constitutional, administrative, and political factors that make integrating the Duchy of Lancaster and the Duchy of Cornwall into the Crown Estate a complex undertaking.
Step 1: Historical and Legal Foundations
1.1 Medieval Origins of the Duchies

• The Duchy of Lancaster (est. 1265) and the Duchy of Cornwall (est. 1337) were created through royal charters. These charters are legal documents that define their governance, purpose, and the assets they control.
• The Duchy of Cornwall provides income for the heir apparent, while the Duchy of Lancaster provides independent income for the reigning Sovereign. This structure is deeply embedded in feudal law and constitutional tradition.

1.2 Legal Independence

• Both Duchies are considered legal entities separate from the Crown Estate, meaning they are governed by their own laws and rules.
• Integrating them into the Crown Estate would require amending or repealing the original charters and related legislation, such as:
• The Duchy of Cornwall Management Act 1863.
• The Crown Estate Act 1961.
• These laws do not overlap or interact directly, meaning a bespoke legal framework would need to be drafted for the transition.

Step 2: Constitutional Complications 2.1 Sovereign and Heir’s Financial Independence

• The Duchies provide financial independence to the Sovereign and heir apparent, reducing reliance on taxpayer funding.
• Folding them into the Crown Estate would result in:
• The Sovereign and heir losing a key income source.
• Increased reliance on the Sovereign Grant, which is funded by taxpayers and linked to the Crown Estate's revenue.
• Reform would therefore require:
• Renegotiating the Sovereign Grant formula.
• Amending laws such as the Sovereign Grant Act 2011.

2.2 Role of Parliament

• Parliament’s role in legislating for the Duchies is limited because they are considered private estates. Their dual public-private nature means reforms would require constitutional adjustments, raising broader questions about the monarchy's role and financial independence.
• There is also a risk that this could set a precedent for further constitutional reforms, potentially destabilizing the monarchy’s current position.

Step 3: Asset Complexity 3.1 Nature of Assets

• The Duchies’ portfolios include a mix of:
• Agricultural estates.
• Commercial properties.
• Residential holdings.
• Investment portfolios.
• These assets are governed by specific laws and leases, many of which have been in place for centuries. For example:
• Some leases grant tenants special rights under feudal law.
• Property rights and obligations vary depending on the type of asset and its location.

3.2 Integration Challenges

• Integrating these diverse assets into the Crown Estate would involve:
• Reassessing ownership structures.
• Valuing and transferring assets, which could lead to disputes over their worth.
• Renegotiating leases and contracts with existing tenants.
• The operational frameworks of the Duchies and the Crown Estate differ significantly. The Duchies operate with greater autonomy and flexibility, while the Crown Estate is subject to public-sector governance rules.

Step 4: Taxation and Financial Issues 4.1 Taxation Exemptions

• Both Duchies currently enjoy unique tax privileges:
• They are exempt from corporation tax and capital gains tax, although they pay voluntary income tax.
• Their tax-exempt status is tied to their public-private nature, complicating efforts to treat them as fully public entities.
• Folding them into the Crown Estate would require:
• Revising tax laws to clarify whether Duchy assets would remain exempt.
• Determining how profits generated by these assets would be redistributed to the Treasury or Sovereign.

4.2 Revenue Redistribution

• Currently, profits from the Duchies are used to fund the Sovereign and heir. Crown Estate profits, by contrast, are paid directly to the Treasury, with a percentage allocated back to the Sovereign Grant.
• Folding the Duchies into the Crown Estate would necessitate:
• Redistributing revenues, which could reduce the monarchy’s financial independence.
• Renegotiating Treasury agreements, a process that could prove contentious.

Step 5: Broader Legal and Political Implications 5.1 Precedent for Broader Reform

• Reforming the Duchies could set a legal precedent for revisiting the status of other royal assets, such as:
• The Sovereign’s personal estates (e.g., Sandringham, Balmoral).
• The governance and operation of the Crown Estate itself.
• This could lead to debates about the monarchy’s financial and constitutional role, potentially fueling republican sentiment.

5.2 Risk of Legal Challenges

• Stakeholders, such as tenants or private parties with vested interests, might legally challenge any changes, potentially leading to:
• Judicial reviews.
• Lengthy court battles over property rights, tax liabilities, or compensation.

5.3 Political Sensitivities

• The monarchy remains a sensitive and symbolic institution in the UK. Any reform that appears to undermine its financial stability or independence could provoke:
• Opposition from royalists and conservative groups.
• Perceptions of governmental overreach or hostility toward the Royal Family.

Step 6: Administrative and Operational Barriers 6.1 Transitioning Governance

• The Crown Estate operates under strict public accountability measures, including oversight by Parliament and the Treasury. Transitioning the Duchies’ governance to align with these standards would require:
• Reorganizing management structures.
• Adopting new regulatory and reporting frameworks.
• Training staff and adapting operational procedures to comply with public-sector requirements.

Sometimes if people knew the full complexities of x issues then they would be more educated on the issues.

None of that is particularly complex. And part of the reason for reform is to do away with many issues within the current arrangement you outline. I am off out now, but am happy to provide a detailed answer tomorrow

🤯🤯🤯

definitely an exploding head moment 🙃

Who cares? A group of people who we already fund by one mechanism are also taking money from us by another method. Regardless of who is also benefiting, this group should be stopped.

That's all very well. However, the 3 word riposte is

"Parliament is sovereign"

Also, not doing something because it's hard (thanks JFK) would have suited slaveowners and anti suffragists down to the ground.