Can we do something about William and Charles profiting from the NHS etc ?

[Ukisgaslit]

If You haven’t seen it , the Times and Channel 4 Dispatches programme did some proper old fashioned investigative journalism and revealed how Charles and William via the Duchys are charging schools, the NHS and charities ( some they are patron of!) to use ‘their’ land.
It is not ‘their’ land - it is state land , as the crown estates are. The Duchys were overlooked in 1760 when George 111 handed his holdings over in return for annual handouts from the state - they were overlooked as they were worthless then.
They have made the Windsors billions since the mid 20th century and no corporation tax or capital gains tax paid. William recently refused to continue providing the little financial information that his father offered.

Aside from the obvious fact that the king is in a unique position, being above the law whether we like it or not ( though why is William treated as also above the law?) surely they are humiliated to be revealed as ripping off schools and charities and hospitals?

Where is the Windsor mea culpa and offer to repay with interest? Answer came there none.

So AIBU to expect MPs to please act and fold the Duchys into the crown estate ? The UK is in a weakened state and allowing this feudal greed to continue unchecked diminishes our society further .

Patronage Role: When members of the Royal Family act as patrons of charities, their role is largely ceremonial or advocacy-based. They lend their status and visibility to raise awareness and funds for the organization without directly receiving payment or financial benefits from the charity itself.

Income from Duchies: The income they derive from duchies is unrelated to their patronage activities. The Duchy of Cornwall and the Duchy of Lancaster are historical estates that generate revenue independently of the charitable organizations the royals support. These revenues are not tied to their patronage roles and are instead tied to their positions as heirs or sovereigns.

At least thats my understanding of the issue

Thanks, I understand what a Patron is and what their role is. I can't think of any other high profile Patrons who are making a lot of money from the charity they are Patron of.

So it would be better if the Royals either didn’t bother with charity work or refused to rent any of their privately held properties to Charities or Government related bodies at commercial rents? How would either of those things help?

@kenway - that particular lie was debunked ages ago
And it’s been made clear to us that Wilson won’t be doing any charity visits . Just zoom and insta

A very good question which im sure the op has great wisdom and understanding of the issue

@AzurePanda

I’m afraid that’s incorrect . You seem to be repeating the partial information that appears on royal websites. .
The only external audit is on the previously mentioned limited/ redacted accounts.

Did you watch the program or read the article?

The select committee decades ago asked for proper oversight and were refused .
So there is not proper oversight

@Kenway01

William has already made it clear that he’s not bothering with the charities
It makes no difference in any case . The charity swizz always benefitted the Windsors more than any charity
No doubt the new swizz will be insta rolls in exchange for half a billion a year
Now they could refund the rents they’ve taken off all the charities over the years

Id welcome that . But I won’t hold my breath

i fail to see the link between the royals and the duchys, if the duchys are seprate entity from the royals helping the chairty then why does it matter ? as they royals could swap the chairtys andthe duchys would still be in the business ?
morally i can under stand it seems omg, considering if they are already wealthy

and if its all about them paying the taxes well they could just raise the prices ?

@kenway - with respect please read the thread . It’s been gone over many times

@Kenway01
Duchys are not separate from the royals
They are medieval fiefdoms acting outside the law ( environmental law too not just tax law)

The taking rents from charities / schools / NHS is a separate but related issue

From a summary of the thread and my research is this correct :

The Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, integral to the financial framework of the British monarchy, have recently been the focus of scrutiny due to concerns over their operations and the implications for public services. This analysis examines the primary issues associated with these estates, emphasizing their financial dealings, tax status, and interactions with public institutions.

1. Financial Transactions with Public Services
Investigations have revealed that both Duchies have engaged in financial arrangements with public services, notably the National Health Service (NHS). The Duchy of Lancaster, for instance, entered into a 15-year lease agreement in 2023, charging an NHS Foundation Trust £829,000 annually for a central London warehouse used to store ambulances.
Wikipedia
Similarly, the Duchy of Cornwall has received substantial payments from the Royal Navy for the use of jetties and mooring rights on its properties.
Standard

2. Tax Exemptions and Financial Transparency
Both Duchies are exempt from paying corporation tax and capital gains tax, a status that has attracted criticism. Although the monarch has voluntarily paid income and capital gains tax since 1993, the lack of a legal obligation raises questions about fairness and transparency. Concerns have been amplified by reports that Prince William, the current Duke of Cornwall, has declined to disclose his tax contributions for the recent financial year.
The Daily Telegraph

3. Quality of Rental Properties
The quality of housing provided by the Duchies has also come under scrutiny. Investigations indicate that a significant percentage of rental properties in Cornwall and Lancaster fail to meet minimum energy efficiency standards, a legal requirement since 2020. Issues such as dampness and black mold have been reported, raising concerns about the living conditions of tenants and the Duchies' compliance with housing regulations.
Standard

4. Ethical Considerations and Public Perception
The involvement of the Duchies in profit-generating activities with public services has led to ethical debates. Critics argue that it is inappropriate for the monarchy to profit from essential public services like the NHS, especially during times of economic strain. These concerns are compounded by the significant increase in the Sovereign Grant, which has risen by over $56 million, bringing it to more than $165 million, amid public backlash and government budget constraints.
People

The Duchys are the personal estates of the King and his heir. They are analogous to the Ducal estates of which there are a number in the UK.

The Duchy is a landlord. Of course it would charge rent, as would any other landlord. I agree that perhaps they could lower what they charge to some degree, but I'm not familiar with their accounts and don't know what the duchy's expenses are.

The Royals do endless charity work, and I think there's huge value in the continuity of a monarchy, and in having an entity that's above politics. Our current RF isn't perfect and needs reform, but I don't want to go over to a republic model.

From my research this seems part of the issues people have :

The Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster, serving as substantial sources of income for the British royal family, have been subjects of increasing scrutiny and controversy. The primary concerns include:

Financial Transactions with Public Services
Investigations have revealed that both Duchies receive significant income from public services. For instance, the Duchy of Lancaster has charged the National Health Service (NHS) £11.4 million over 15 years for ambulance storage facilities. Similarly, the Duchy of Cornwall has engaged in profitable arrangements with the Ministry of Defence for military training areas. Critics argue that, given the royal family's public roles, such financial dealings with essential services are inappropriate.
Town & Country

Tax Exemptions
The Duchies are exempt from paying corporation tax and capital gains tax, unlike other commercial entities. Although the King and the Prince of Wales voluntarily pay income tax on Duchy revenues, the lack of mandatory tax obligations has led to calls for reform to ensure equitable tax treatment.
Town & Country

Environmental Concerns
Despite public commitments to environmental sustainability, the Duchies have been linked to activities that raise ecological concerns. Notably, the Duchy of Lancaster stands to profit from a large potash mining operation in the North York Moors National Park, which has faced opposition from environmental groups due to potential ecological impacts.
The Sun

Transparency and Governance
The Duchies' complex legal status and lack of transparency in financial disclosures have been criticized. For example, Prince William has declined to disclose tax information related to the Duchy of Cornwall, prompting concerns about accountability in the management of these estates.
The Daily Telegraph

These controversies have led to public debate over the appropriateness of the Duchies' operations, with some advocating for their integration into the Crown Estate to ensure that profits benefit the public treasury rather than individual members of the royal family.
The Guardian

the overall question is how can we be sure that the services eg military, Nhs etc would recieve a better service than they current have under the duchies ?

Agree
If you read back over the thread you’ll see this has all been discussed almost to the death here.
Obviously there’s no way of knowing whether any would be better off of course, but as the nhs are selling their own land they clearly don’t want to build hospitals on what they can sell for a profit.

The clear way it would be better off is that the Duchies could be made transparent so we can see exactly what they are doing. Also to improve the running so you do not have people living in terrible housing that should have been insulated and had double glazing installed

The National Health Service (NHS) in England has been actively selling surplus land and properties as a strategy to generate capital and address financial constraints. This approach, while providing immediate funds, has sparked debate regarding its implications for future healthcare infrastructure development.

NHS Land Sales
In recent years, the NHS has identified and sold numerous plots of land deemed surplus to requirements. For instance, in 2018, it was reported that the NHS was seeking buyers for 718 different plots across England, a significant increase from previous years.
The Guardian

Financial Pressures and Capital Generation
The sale of NHS land is often driven by the need to generate capital for reinvestment into healthcare services and to alleviate financial pressures. The Naylor Review, an independent report on NHS property and estates, recommended the disposal of inefficiently used assets to raise funds for the implementation of sustainability and transformation plans.
GOV.UK Assets

Implications for Hospital Development
Critics argue that the focus on selling NHS land may hinder the development of new healthcare facilities. The disposal of land reduces the availability of sites for potential hospital expansion or construction, potentially impacting the NHS's ability to meet future healthcare demands. Additionally, there are concerns that the reliance on land sales reflects a short-term approach to financial management, potentially compromising long-term strategic planning for healthcare infrastructure.
Open Democracy

Alternative Uses of NHS Land
There is also debate over the use of sold NHS land. Reports indicate that a significant portion of homes built on former NHS sites are unaffordable to NHS staff, such as nurses, raising questions about the social value derived from these sales.
New Economics Foundation

Agree
I posted upthread an article on the lack of affordable housing agreed on these land sales and in some cases no affordable housing at all.

A patron’s role is simply to support and promote the charity.

Shame then that a huge proportion of charities with royal patrons don't see them from one year's end to another.

For those insisting it's all fine and dandy for the royals to double-dip public funds and divert charitable donations from the public made in good faith to their own pockets can I ask what you make of the underlying morals on display and whether you think the PR optics are entirely positive?

The Duchy is a landlord. Of course it would charge rent, as would any other landlord.

And yet there is no record of the Crown Estate appearing to have received rent in respect of a luxury Mayfair flat occupied by an alleged fraudster mate of the charmless Andrew.

We can also look to the very sweet deal Henry achieved on the Frogmore repayment whereby the capital sum was suddenly found to have included eighteen month's rent then was deemed to have absolved him of any further rental obligations without ever actually increasing.

Both instances deprived the public purse of a proportion of its dues but you won't see the Windsors deprived of theirs.

@Pussycat22 the Royals are patrons of over 1,000 charities so surely it’s not that surprising that appearances are annual or less.

Oops - that was to @CathyorClaire

I think when we're constantly assured charitable work is a huge part of their raison d'être they could make a bit more of an effort, yes.

Duke of Doolittle's already addressing the problem though with his insistence on dropping those pesky little guys and concentrating on the big stuff 👌

I wonder how many charities you’re personally involved with @CathyorClaire ?

I ask because I’m currently involved with 3, all of whom are lucky enough to have a member of the Royal family as a patron. All 3 are incredibly grateful for their involvement and the really significant impact this has on the charities’ work and profiles.