Can we do something about William and Charles profiting from the NHS etc ?

[Ukisgaslit]

If You haven’t seen it , the Times and Channel 4 Dispatches programme did some proper old fashioned investigative journalism and revealed how Charles and William via the Duchys are charging schools, the NHS and charities ( some they are patron of!) to use ‘their’ land.
It is not ‘their’ land - it is state land , as the crown estates are. The Duchys were overlooked in 1760 when George 111 handed his holdings over in return for annual handouts from the state - they were overlooked as they were worthless then.
They have made the Windsors billions since the mid 20th century and no corporation tax or capital gains tax paid. William recently refused to continue providing the little financial information that his father offered.

Aside from the obvious fact that the king is in a unique position, being above the law whether we like it or not ( though why is William treated as also above the law?) surely they are humiliated to be revealed as ripping off schools and charities and hospitals?

Where is the Windsor mea culpa and offer to repay with interest? Answer came there none.

So AIBU to expect MPs to please act and fold the Duchys into the crown estate ? The UK is in a weakened state and allowing this feudal greed to continue unchecked diminishes our society further .

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Why should they not charge market rents?

That's an interesting point after the Frogmore 'repayment' deal which transpired to have saved Harold several hundred thousand in 'market rent'

Seems the idea of who should be charged and who shouldn't is as fluid as the duchies' legal status.

Aye sure you do

If you are talking about landlords who rent to the NHS, they have already been outsourced - PFI contracts cost billions.
As to the RF we don't 'give' them anything, they live off their own money and the Sovereign Grant which is paid from the profits of property the monarch owns (most of the profits going to the Treasury). We pay for security for the head of state and his representatives (when they are representing him/her) and since parliament has instituted a hereditary head of state, we pay for the security of the heir apparent and his family.
An elected president would cost more, plus the cost of elections and the unhelpful fact that an elected president would belong to a political affiliation.

That's interesting. And possibly short-sighted.

I refuse to believe that a president would cost the half a billion pounds a year that the Royal Family do.
Presidents do not have to be elected. And even if they are, you would make their election part of an existing election.

The duchies are how Charles and William fund their staff salaries, their security, travel expenses, the expenses involved in running their charitable foundations, and fund their families and eventually their families' families. I think they also use the funds to upkeep various buildings. It's a lot of money, but they have to pay for a lot from it.

The duchies are also a way of stewarding the land. If not for them, more land would be sold and built on.

It's annoying that Charles and William get so much money, but on the other hand, why would anyone put up with the life they have if not for the riches? Don't forget that the most intimate details of their lives are prone to appear in the press, they're subject to frequent harsh criticism, they have no freedom whatsoever to just go about their lives without the press analysing them and writing negative articles about them, they can't pop out for a pizza while looking in a state, they can't just go swimming without the risk of being kidnapped or attacked. They're absolute prisoners. Money cannot make up for these things. Add to that, they cannot realise any personal ambitions at all. Their whole lives are devoted to serving the state. Fancy being a lawyer or a nurse or a detective? Tough luck! Any talents you might have will go to waste.

And I can't imagine how awful it must be to have your life dissected on the front pages of the paper. All the personal details of your life laid out for the whole world to see. Your parents' divorce, your bereavement, your problems with your brother, everyone in the world reading all about it. Their whole lives are a recipe for mental-health problems. Money doesn't help with any of this.

I think we're lucky they continue to serve our country, instead of telling us where to shove it. Without them, we'd be in danger of being like America, with Trump.

Just imagine the UK as a republic with a President Farage. Charles and William not looking so bad now, eh??

I really like having a monarch who's above any greasy politician.

Would you like it as much if it was king andrew vs president michael Palin?

@ChicLilacSeal they are terrible at stewarding the land. Vast grouse moors they enjoy shooting on, but that are terrible for biodiversity.
And what would stop us having someone like Nigel Farage as Monarch under the current system? If George became a big fan of Nigel Farage and decided to emulate him, there is nothing we could do about it.

Can we please stop repeating the The Windsor grift is better than president trump’

You know that’s wrong. The US and France use a totally different system . You’ve been told this repeatedly . But when I see that line I know one thing- you are out of answers

To return to the thread topic
Stop trying to deflect by citing ‘other rich people’ and ‘ politics of envy’ . Irrelevant here.

Our current head of state has a coronation (costing us millions) the point of which is

(cringe) the whole country is handed to Charles’ safekeeping . We now know they are ripping off the state institutions we pay for to satisfy their greed. They know we know . Not a word from them.
It’s another scandal to add to the pile

what can we do about this outrage ?

@ChicLilacSeal

“I really like having a monarch who's above any greasy politician.”

Sorry to burst your bubble but do you read the news ?
The Windsors’wealth has ballooned exactly because they are rolling in the mud with ‘greasy politicians ‘ as you put it . The Tories mainly .
Have politicians been chased by the FBI for questioning but had public funds pay off the accuser ? Have they been able to avoid every proper investigation of their dodgy deals ( bags of cash Charles ) . I won’t even mention Saville Ball Mountbatten.

@Ukisgaslit how is charging market rent “ripping off” state institutions?

@AzurePanda Perhaps you haven’t read the thread - it has been explained repeatedly
But the point is ( if it’s not obvious ):

The Windsors are in a uniquely privileged position and as a result do not pay their full tax dues and not have to follow laws which apply to rest of us .
Their million pound coronations hand the nation to them for ‘safekeeping’ with blessings and anointings .

We then find they ( Elizabeth too) have been charging state bodies such as NHS and schools and charities . The have already been paid by the taxpayer - half a billion a year - yet they also secretly until now also charge the same state rent .
Do you see the issue?

Even royalist media have criticised this - quite rightly .

@AzurePanda
I would add that the royalist defence ( only seen on mumsnet though ) of this indefensible situation is its ‘market rent ‘ or ‘other ‘rich people do this so it’s fine’ ignoring the truth of the Windsors situation

This echoes the Windsor’s own approach when questioned which is ‘ private when it suits them , public when it suits them’
Funny that .

The media has covered this poorly but those who have covered it are critical, naturally . Even tabloids

The duchies are how Charles and William fund their staff salaries, their security, travel expenses, the expenses involved in running their charitable foundations,

Duchy income is deemed private but travel expenses on official duties are met by the Sovereign Grant - which cannot fall. Charitable foundation expenses are met by bags of cash donations.

Security is funded separately by the government and we're not allowed to know the true figure. Knees-ups (two plus a massive funeral all in the space of a year) are also paid for by the government.

They're absolute prisoners.

They're not. As I always point out on these threads any and all are free to walk away as extremely rich individuals at any time.

Amazing how few do.

To the poster above who said "They are prisoners" well bless their hearts, maybe it's time we set them free.
As a family and as our representatives they are completely embarrassing.
I applaud the OP for starting the post.

@StScholastica Thank you .
This is the first thread I’ve ever started .

Why would the Duchy’s be expected to pay corporation tax? None of the ducal estates (Blenheim, Chatsworth, Badminton etc) pay corporation tax as they are not corporations.

@AzurePanda

Duchys are not just estates . The are run as corporations - they own shopping malls, chemical extraction mines, petrol stations
Of course the Windsors don’t do the actual managing. But the Windsors refuse to pay the corporation tax - because they don’t want to . It’s the old ‘public when it suits them , private when it suits them’ line

But they do like to have a photo taken leaning against a tree - to give the impression of ownership and that it’s all squirrel Nutkin and not the raw capitalist machine the Duchy teally is

I assume you haven’t watched the programme or read the Times report ?

Neither the Duchy of Lancaster or Cornwall is a corporation so therefore they are not liable for corporation tax. In line with the many other Ducal Estates, many of which have extensive and varied business interests beyond land owning.

Please don't misquote. The 11.4m is over a 15 year deal.

I do however think that in the current climate the royals should forgo all or some of their rents on the buildings used for NHS or other public services. It would be the right thing to do.

It is important to remember that the financial affairs of the royal family are complex and managed by their staff. They take advice just like any other wealthy individuals. I think strong pressure from the public and the press would help to persuade them to reduce their rents for a period of time.

Removing these assets from the Duchy would not help anyone. The NHS estate is very badly managed as there are no spare funds to ensure their buildings are kept in good repair. At least this way, presumably the Duchy is responsible for the upkeep of the land and buildings.

I do not agree with transferring the assets to the Crown. The Crown Estate is also in my view mis-managed and the Duchies at least have to answer to a private individual that does ensure they are better run. As for sub-standard housing, the Duchies need to be brought to task over their housing standards just like any other private landlord.

The public do benefit from Income Tax at higher rates charged on the surpluses from the Duchies paid to the royal family which is not unsubstantial.

No- they are corporations . I fact other businesses have pointed out the unfair advantage. The Windsors simply say no, they are not corporations based on nothing but their own say so.

.MPs have been calling for the to pay corporation tax for years.

Landlords charge their tenants rent! Hold the front page!

On what do you base your idea that the Duchies are "corporations"?

@Ukisgaslit they are not Corporations. Nor are any of the other Ducal estates and nor are a large number of other entities which hold assets and investments. This is not a matter of opinion, it’s a legal definition.