Not forcing my son to have more time with his dad?

[ProfessorZ]

DS is 10. Until 18 months ago, he didn’t stay with his father at all overnight, this was because he was in a house share with 6 other men and he didn’t feel it appropriate, as DS would have had to sleep on a sofa or in his dad’s bed. DS also didn’t want to sleepover there and I did not think it was safe. He also has ASD and didn’t want to be around lots of random people.

We had many years of DS crying when it was his dad’s weekend and not wanting to go.

4 months ago, DS’s dad moved into his own flat. It is one bedroom, and again involves DS sleeping on a sofa or in his dad’s bed. DS is ‘happier’ with this, although says he misses his bedroom at home and having his own space. He still grumbles every time it is his dad’s weekend and he has agreed to stay one night every fortnight.

DS’s dad has today approached me upon picking up DS and said he needs two nights a fortnight as it’s not quality time having one night, and he cannot afford the child maintenance bill and having him 2 nights will reduce his liability. I’m all for him seeing DS more, but DS categorically doesn’t want to stay for more nights, and I don’t think at 10 (or any age really) I should force him.

DS’s dad is a teacher and has just had the lengthy Christmas period. He had DS for one night and did not see him outside of that. I can only think this new suggestion is money motivated to reduce the child maintenance bill, otherwise he would have seen him during the almost 3 weeks we’ve just had off.

DS also got a phone for Christmas and his dad hasn’t phoned or texted him once, again, just adding evidence that I don’t believe this is about their relationship and ‘quality time’.

AIBU to leave it up to DS and not to force him to go for more nights?

Do you have a Child Arrangement Order?

Ahh I voted unreasonable by accident there.
i wouldn’t at all be forcing your son to have more time. If his dad was making an effort to see him more in the day etc to build a better bond and make your son more inclined to hi then that would be another conversation but that’s not the case hey.
can you afford to call his bluff on the mow h side as in tell him you’ll declare your son stays 2 nights but actually he will only be staying 1? This will show his true colours if he accepts straight away. Maybe phrase it losely in a ‘how about if we’ and see his reaction. Then whatever the outcome from him you have the option to asses the financial impact and withdraw if you need to, absolutely don’t compromise yourself financially if it will make a dent.
its strange that on a teachers wage he can’t afford more than a one bedroom flat, I know it’s not a huge wage and I don’t know what area you live in but is this another show of him not prioritising your sons needs?

@pumpkinpillow No.

@Flipslop He lives in London which contributes, however, I have always had to ‘find the money’ for a two bedroom place. I’ve worked until midnight on my business in the past to ensure I’ve got the money to afford a proper bedroom for DS. He’s had 8 years to find somewhere or find the means to have a proper bedroom for DS. He also moans about the commute to collect DS (it’s a one hour drive as I’m in Surrey) and wants me to meet him half way, which I’m absolutely not prepared to do given I do 99% of the parenting.

You need a CAO in place OP if you can.

But no, don't force him, it's not up to you to build the relationship.

Hmm yeah sounds like a selfish prick then you’re doing all the right things by providing for your son. All things considered I wouldn’t entertain his request, it’s all geared to suit him and not you or your son. If he was saying he’d use the money to get more suitable housing so that your son would feel more comfortable then maybe but that’s clearly not his plan. Fuck him, selfish prick

If he really wanted to see his DS more then he'd see him in the day, he only wants an extra night to save money. It's pretty poor of him to be happy to have three weeks off and not bother at all. When your DC won't go at all it will be his DF fault

@Flipslop you can change your vote by just clicking on the other option

I can absolutely understand why someone would want two nights instead of one, when it's a two hour return journey.

Having said that - he's not exactly demonstrating any real commitment to your son, in any way. He doesn't have the space, he doesn't make an effort to keep in touch outwith his one night per fortnight. The very fact that he mentioned it would reduce his maintenance shows his real motivation.

Honestly, if it was me, I would move mountains to make it happen, if it was what my child wanted. But it's not what he wants. He's old enough to have an opinion, and the only person you will be helping by doing this is your ex. It's a emphatic yanbu from me.

He's pathetic to be wanting to see his son more only to pay less maintenance. My daughter is also 10 she is seeing her dad 2 nights, sometimes less. She has her bedroom there. She doesn't like going because she doesn't like her stepmum and stepsibling are in their 20ties, she says she's bored. I make her go, I think at 10 she's not mature enough to make that choice and her dad wants her there. I think their relationship is important. I tell her the older she gets the more agency she will have, but 10 is young. Do you think your son would benefit from spending more time with his dad, now that his house is safer? What about you? You work, you look after your boy, a break could be needed for you?

I don’t think it’s appropriate for your ds to spend any overnights with his df given there’s no space for him. I certainly wouldn’t force him.

DS’s dad has today approached me upon picking up DS and said he needs two nights a fortnight as it’s not quality time having one night,
Fair enough, sounds good but...

and he cannot afford the child maintenance bill and having him 2 nights will reduce his liability.
Wow.

I’m all for him seeing DS more, but DS categorically doesn’t want to stay for more nights, and I don’t think at 10 (or any age really) I should force him.
Bearing in mind a judge would take an 11 year olds view into consideration then no you cannot force your child.

DS also got a phone for Christmas and his dad hasn’t phoned or texted him once, / has just had the lengthy Christmas period. He had DS for one night and did not see him outside of that.
Let that sink in.

Thanks for your opinions. I’m asking as I’ve got people in real life who think I should ‘force’ him to spend more time with his dad. Where as I don’t think he should be made to if he doesn’t want to, especially when the main motivation seems to be to reduce maintenance, not to actually be in DS’s best interests.

What are the benefits of this?

If your ex wants more then he needs to initiate and get a CAO.

It's if no benefit to you as it just means you have times and days to make your DS available but he can still not bother to turn up and try and return early.

I dont know how the legalities of child maintenance work re overnights, but would him having him for 2 night actually mean he paid less? Surely the only cost he would be covering extra is feeding him for a day, surely for maintenance to be reduced he needs to be covering more of his sons expenses directly, ie if he had 50/50 care and paid for clothes/shoes and any activities ir clubs he goes to on bi's weeks, that kind of thing.
Would it actually be reduced purely on an overnight stay?

Yes if he has him 2 overnights he will be paying less

Not in your best interests as you already have the set up you want and DS is almost a tween. It's not even really about certainty as it just says when his dad can have him but in reality he still doesn't have to have him them.

It's tough decision to make, but his dad's actions say to me he's not genuinely interested in seeing his son more. Two nights especially with the drive makes sense, but DS doesn't want it and his dad has never really been an involved dad and he doesn't actually seem that interested in seeing him more. My kids dad couldn't be bothered setting messenger up so he can talk to our younger kids, but he does at least text with our eldest who has a phone. I can't understand either attitude, my ex will only communicate if it's made easy for him, but yours can't even be bothered to do it when it's easy.

You’re his mum, you know what’s best for him x

I get what you are saying about forcing a child, but I also can't help thinking that the dad isn't the only money orientated person here, he could definitely spend more days with his son but it seems you are counting nights for cms by the book and what the betting there's more to the story. The sensible solution is dad spends more days with his son and you privately come to an arrangement to reduce sms a bit to reflect hes entertaining and feeding him even if he's not staying overnight.

Why has he chose to move into a home too small for his family? He has a 10yo son. He should've chosen a home with a room for his son.

I would also say that my ex experienced the opposite, his mother alienated him, ran his dad down and he stopped wanting to see his dad (ex can't remember as he was so young) his dad excepted this over time and contact ceased, he now knows the truth was much more complicated and his dad did want him just the system gave his mum majority custody and ex didn't cope with transitions hence not wanting to switch, he deeply regrets not being made to see his dad

Do you really think that the CMS he pays is likely to cover 50% of DS’s costs? Even with 2 days out of 14 taken into account - which is realistically lunch & tea on Saturday, then breakfast & lunch on Sunday. He hasn’t even got the extra costs involved in having a 2 bedroom place.

The OP has carried the financial burden of raising her son, housing him etc full time whilst the dad (a teacher, so not skint!) Lived in a houseshare meaning he couldn't share that burden. He then moved out but still into a home unsuitable for housing his son.

Taking him to bloody Burger King once a week doesn't necessitate a reduction in maintenance, when OP is paying 100% of the gas, elec, water, Internet, mortgage/rent, school costs, games, toys, food, trips, clothing. Yes she gets CMS towards that, but its only an amount based on what the dad should be having him overnight (but can't due to his own situation he made) and what he is (the barest of bare minimum and unenjoyable for his son).

He only pays £85 a week, so to suggest it is in any way money motivated on my part is somewhat laughable.

It’s the dilemma that ultimately, it is his dad, and how far do I go facilitating their relationship, even to the extent where DS is unhappy as his wishes are being ignored.

It's up to his Dad to make the effort to build the relationship and accommodate his DS needs so that he feels comfortable to stay longer and want to go. That's what I would put in writing to your ex.

You are happy to encourage DS and facilitate more phone/facetime and contact but you will not force him.