Talented at arguing

[DoodleDonnell]

My husband and I had an argument about lies he’s been telling me recently. One of them was pretty big and one was tiny… but that’s what has annoyed me. He can’t even be honest lately about the small stuff. Neither of which he had to lie about.

I have huge issues with people in general because of stuff done to me in the past. He knows this and, cheesy as it is, we are very close usually. We rarely row - certainly not significantly- and things are pretty plain sailing.

I don’t want to share what he lied about. The point is that I’m upset that he wasn’t just simply honest with me. So last night we had an argument - a major one. I know this is bad, please don’t judge, but I recorded it without him knowing. I know why I did this. It’s because:

A) he can appear so confident about what he said / didn’t say that I second guess myself. I sensed that he would say stuff which he would deny then I look paranoid / confused
B) so I can listen again when calmer instead of being reactive
C) I always feel I need proof to protect myself. By protect myself I don’t mean physically or anything - just that I feel people see me as the bad guy or a bad person so I wanted proof that it wasn’t me / just me

In our argument he said, “Oh I forgot how talented you are at arguing”. I said how hurtful and unnecessary that was. It has really hurt me. Talented at arguing?! Who says that? I actually hate arguing… I swear I was a tortoise in a previous life because I hide away. I hide from confrontation. I don’t socialise. That’s how much I hate any drama or negativity. I don’t ever want to mix with people because I don’t even want to risk arguing or drama or hassle.

So I was upset. About an hour / 30 mins later he says, “I never said you were talented at arguing”. Yes he did. He still doesn’t know he’s recorded. He’s so confident but I listened to it again and he most definitely did say it. He also said some other quite unpleasant things such as, “I am not being unkind if I’m telling you a statement. If something is a statement, it isn’t unkind”. So I said, “if I said ‘you’re a bastard’ that would be a statement but also unkind so that’s not true”. My other issue is that other people are allowed to be upset and offended about what life throws at them but I’m not allowed to be upset. I have to take other people’s comments, swallow them down and say nothing. For the first time, I have put a boundary in place about how I’m treated and now this happens.

In the end, I asked him to leave me alone. I stayed in our room and he stayed downstairs. I asked that he slept on the sofa which he did. I sobbed. More than I’ve cried in years. I cried so hard I felt like all my tears that I had ever cried were being cried all over again.

He’s my best friend, I just cannot believe he said I am talented at arguing…. It’s hurt me a lot.

He was out all day at work today and when he came back we watched tv. He spoke to me normally, I have short answers. I’m not doing that to be dramatic. I’m doing it because of what he said last night.

I’m struggling a lot atm. He knows that. Life is throwing me sour lemons from all angles atm. His comment has significantly hurt me. I feel very disconnected atm from everyone and everything and now this.

What’s worse is that this has gone the way I feared

1. He said something that he now denies. In the past, I’d doubt myself but this time I have a recording
2. He spoke to me normally so now my feelings are discarded

I really think I was a tortoise previously. I appreciate the irony of posting on here but I have had enough. I just want to go and hide in a cave somewhere (not literally) but be left alone. I’ve always said that if people can’t ‘not’ hurt me can they just leave me alone. But he is starting to say some pretty unpleasant things.

How would you feel if someone said you’re talented at arguing when they know it’s your number 1 hate to argue. He knows I don’t ever argue with anyone - if someone tries to start an argument I block them and stop all communication, hiding away and avoiding it. It’s upset me so much I now can’t sleep

I'm not sure your title is about your real question. I like to think I'm "talented at arguing" - I love a good argument! Sadly, not too many people are good at it so everyday arguments tend to be a lot of anger, hurt feelings and crap. Pity.

Your real question seems to be about whether your husband argues fairly. This is an important concern. I'm glad you recorded this argument. It's shown you that you weren't wrong to think he misleads you and backtracks in order to win, as he sees it. The argument to him is a power game, and he's willing to use dirty tricks to gain the dominant position.

It's interesting that you said the trigger for the argument was his lying. Would it be reasonable, do you think, to suppose the lies he tells are also meant to put him in a position of power over you?

As you said your relationship's normally easy-going and equal, this could just be a minor character flaw you can live with. Nonetheless, a partner wanting to create power struggles within the relationship, wanting to dominate the other, is concerning in general.

Op would you be happy or would you say to other women it is ok if a man recorded a woman?

I’m not sure I entirely understand your question.

if I have understood you correctly, just to stress I have no intention of sharing that recording with anyone. It is mainly for the affirmation that what I know he said, he did actually say since he’s very convincing when he’s so confident he didn’t.

so to answer your question, if a man recorded a woman without ever meaning to share and for the reasons I gave above I wouldn’t have a problem with it. This isn’t a male v female thing

I don't really have any advice to give, but I am envious of you being referred to as talented at arguing i get too emotional , also having the presence of mind to record it, is actually brilliant.
But, my only fear is that because you knew you were recording, wouldn't it affect your own participation in said argument?

It’s a valid point but I don’t think it did

the argument went the way it did

it isn’t as if I would be screaming and shouting if it wasn’t recorded

Life's short. A marriage shouldn't be about who wins the arguments. If you're constantly arguing, and he's constantly lying, something needs to change

That’s the thing, we don’t usually

when we do, which is minor, there have been a few times where I’ve thought, “he definitely said x, y, z” but he’s denied it so confidently that I’ve assumed I misheard / made a mistake. That’s why I recorded it.

but I completely agree with you and, being the tortoise that I am, I now want to ‘hide’ and withdraw

I think if If you felt the need to record your partner during an argument that the relationship is over. Is this really how you want to live?

So the argument itself was about the fact your DH is a liar.
Liars lie: so he is never going to admit to things that he said in an argument. Besides which, tbf, if an argument is heated then even an honest person wouldn't necessarily remember accurately what was said during an argument.
I think if i were you I would stop obsessing about the argument itself and focus on the cause of it. It seems like your DH has been pretty successful in deflecting your attention away from that.

OP, I am putting aside your hurt at the comment about being talented and also putting aside the legitimacy/moral argument about recording someone unbeknownst to them.

Gently, if your relationship has got to the point where you are made to doubt your recollection and feel the need to record conversations so as to confirm your memory of comments and therefore confirm to yourself you are valid to feel upset at those comments, then there is a problem at the whole heart of this relationship.

Most relationships have arguments or disagreements, the important thing is not the argument, but how people react. In this case his reactions are causing you to sink lower and feel the need to record….and he still denies the comments. I think you need to consider these points.

I have thought that today

surely the fact that I felt the need to record is a red flag but what’s worse is he proved me right by saying something that upset me then denying it later on.

but then I think, am I being a tortoise? I know I am very quick to cut people out of my life if they hurt me but is my coping mechanism.

Again, gently, I think you need to work through this issue with a therapist, not Mumsnet, and unpack your feelings and if there are strategies to put in place to help, or not. You clear identify strongly with the tortoise analogy as you have used it three times in only a few posts. Again, gently, I think therapy and not Mumsnet is the better place for you to get answers.

I couldn’t live with someone who secretly recorded me. Jesus. Just end it.

Op, you're not a tortoise, it's oddly self indulgent to keel saying so, as if you've got no agency in starting these arguments.

But you do seem to need to win/be right. So I see his point about the talented arguing.

What does it matter if he contradicted himself halfway through an argument? Where's the gain in winning that point. You're not playing tennis! You (both of you) are destroying your marriage. Maybe it's already destroyed.

The tortoise analogy was to symbolise how I withdraw and become an introvert when I feel hurt or threatened etc

Sorry, I thought that was clear

it wasn’t in a self indulgent way of saying ‘I’m not responsible for anything’

I am not actually sure how a tortoise analogy can be self indulgent 😂

Op is distressed because she is being routinely gaslit. That makes you feel insane and doubt yourself and your perception of reality. It’s awful to go through, truly awful. I don’t blame her for recording him as it was the only way to prove to herself she isn’t losing her mind. However do not tell him you’ve done this, and don’t do it again. Just keep it to yourself that you know you’re not imagining things and use it to strengthen yourself. If he’s not purposefully doing this then it can be fixed if he’s willing to, but if that’s the case it’s likely an ingrained defence mechanism so won’t be easy to undo. It is possible, however. On the other hand if he’s going it on purpose then that is abusive.

I don't understand how you get that OP "needs to win and be right"? She called him out about lying over something that mattered, he denied it and ran rings round her. She recorded the argument so she could see whether he was in fact bullshitting; it appears he was. That looks to me like he needs to win, even if it means increasing his wife's distress.

That said, @DoodleDonnell, I agree with PPs that there seems to be a lot of complicated stuff going on in your psyche, which would be best explored with a therapist rather than your husband. You deserve to feel reasonably confident in life and the people around you (not like a hard-shelled reptile!)

Well, what I mean is, you have said repeatedly that you hide from confrontation, you hate drama.

But it seems as if the arguments have been started by you generally.

What was the small lie? There's a concurrent thread about an op catching her dp out in a lie about a birthday card. She also was requiring "proof" of the lie. Many comments were saying that her behaviour was abusive.

I think it is abusive to record an argument just to catch someone out, tbh. It isn't tortoise-like at all. It isn't the behaviour of someone who hates drama or confrontation

Cant believe the responses berating you for recording him. It has been a fantastic tool for you to finally realise that his gaslighting is real and you are NOT crazy. I'm so glad you've finally got that validation OP.

Then if her husband is so awful, she should leave him. Winning these tennis points won't make the marriage better.

If he’s not purposefully doing this then it can be fixed if he’s willing to, but if that’s the case it’s likely an ingrained defence mechanism so won’t be easy to undo. It is possible, however. On the other hand if he’s going it on purpose then that is abusive.

it isn’t about winning points

it’s just… well like I said before… there have been times where I have thought, “he definitely said x, y, z” but he’s denied it with such confidence that I second guessed myself. This time I just thought if I record then I have proof should anything get said that’s denied. It just so happens that it did.

tbh he was so confident this time that even tho I was 99.9% sure he had said it I still had to reply the recording to myself for that confirmation

What was the tiny lie that triggered the latest argument, op?

I don't know your partner, but speaking for myself, I probably do contradict myself in the heat of an argument. I might not remember saying something, or I might either say something I don't really mean (because I can admittedly be vicious in the moment) or express myself poorly (because being furious, hurt, overwhelmed, etc can make it difficult to think straight, much less put my thoughts and feelings into succinct and accurate words). The longer an argument drags out, the less likely I am to correctly remember everything that's been said.

If you don't argue frequently and generally have a good relationship, I think you should be prepared to let this one go. Reiterate that even small, inconsequential lies are a big thing to you and you need to be able to count on him to never lie about anything. If he apologises and agrees he won't do it again, good; otherwise, you have bigger problems than him saying something hurtful in a heated argument.

I don't know if this is you op, but it is a very similar situation so the advice on it would benefit you too I think.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5239751-husbands-white-lie-but-knows-i-cant-hack-lying