Is it possible for a normal child from a normal school to get a bursary for a top flight private school?

[Hisnutsroastingonanopenfire]

Idly wondering while reading the thoughts on what schools the royal children will attend and I looked at the schools mentioned, their entrance policies, scholarship and bursary schemes. It's not possible, is it, for a state school educated child to make the leap from what they learn at school to being able to pass those exams. Why don't state schools educate their brightest pupils to these standards? Or coach their sporty pupils to this level? Or support performing arts?

Education is failing our children because of poor funding and we seem to be pulling for a race to the bottom which widens the gap into a complete canyon. What's the answer?

Having met some of the teens from the top famous public school attended by royals genuinely wouldn’t want my child going there.

Dds at a perfectly good single sex state most of her friends at the local normal private schools and they are lovely. But the teens they know from the famous public school are not the sort you would want your child to know. To be fair the girls are fine it’s the boys. The things they come out with! Hideous.

In my experience, it's down to the parents having the knowledge of the independent system and/ or the time to invest in the research, activities and knowledge their kids need to prepare for the process/ exams/ interviews/ assessments.

I agree, but that knowledge rarely correlates with also having a low enough income to qualify for a bursary.

I’m sure it’s possible. My kids all went to state school. DD got 12 x grade 9 last year. So pretty sure she would have been more than capable of passing. Though she only really ramped up things in year 10-11, she fell behind a little in lockdown as she hated the online lessons. But she is obviously very bright and could have passed any test. DS is also very bright and both very self driven. Zero pressure from parents. Happy they went to a state school to be honest.

Why don't state schools educate their brightest pupils to these standards?

Well there are state schools that educate the average student to the same standard but they take a strict discipline approach and are generally hated on mumsnet.

To get into a top school where there are 10 applicants for every place then you need disciplined and strict parents who really really push the child and most white people don't do that which is why the top London schools are full of ethnic minorities.

Many independent schools are actively keen to attract very bright kids from the state sector to keep their exam results high, and offer bursaries to attract them. DD has a scholarship and a large (but not 100%) bursary to a day independent: she’s doing very well and it seems that her main academic competitors in her year are also kids recruited from the state sector with bursaries.

I have always been very pro state education and ideologically opposed to private, but I don’t feel at all conflicted about DD being in private with a bursary. She is unusually gifted, in particular at subjects just not offered in the state sector near us - eg. Classical languages. Our catchment school admitted they couldn’t really cater for her, and we’re in an area where we don’t have any other state options. Our local authority seems to have washed its hands of the very able pupils and just doesn’t really provide anything to help.

The state offering for very bright kids in non-grammar areas is often simply nonexistent - in fact it’s worse than when I was in school 30 years ago. All the progress and structures like NAGTY set up under the Blair era were completely dismantled by the Tories, and the current Labour government seem to have no interest in providing anything - in fact, the reverse. And the VAT policy is destroying one of the few routes to a suitable education that remains. If they were actively looking to nurture our brightest pupils I would be less outraged, but they are also dismantling the few initiatives that remain in the state sector for pupils talented in eg. Latin or Maths.

The issue is that many children from 'normal' homes are not exposed to a sufficient breadth of knowledge from birth. No tutoring or schooling is going to be sufficient for them to catch up. I often tutor primary age children and there is a vast difference between those in the private system and those in the state system and much of it is about their family background rather than what they have learnt at school. I have taught state educated children from academic homes that do have a some chance of a scholarship, but many others are extremely disadvantaged by their upbringing, despite the parents' willingness to pay for tutors and no amount of tutoring can get them to the same place. Only those children with highly educated and motivated parents have any hope of getting into these top selective independent schools on a scholarship or bursary.

Well, I can’t argue with that - DP and I are both academic researchers (but relatively low-paid in our fields). Academic salaries have plummeted in real terms during the last 40 years, and compared to other professional jobs, so few academics can afford private school any more unless with family help/partners with much better paid jobs. But we are the classic “no holidays/old car/tiny house/all the money we have goes on activities for DD”, but she’s always been exposed to a high level of books/vocabulary/museum trips etc., so even though she went to an ordinary state primary she probably doesn’t have an “ordinary” upbringing compared to the average child in a state primary.

Last year, three children from my school received full bursaries to the local private school. All 3 are from low income families, 1 is a refugee from Afghanistan and only learned English when he was 7, none have had tuition or coaching. Your understanding as to who stands a chance of getting in is at best misguided, at worst elitist.

They do exist if you look.

We were considering private for our DC but I overheard some kids from the local one comparing their savings the other day and they were eye watering amounts. 😂 Of course most were probably lying (although they sounded pretty well informed about types of savings) but it just struck me that our DC wouldn't really fit in - despite us being able to afford to send them to the school in question and my DH being privately educated himself and coming from wealth. I'm not sure they'd enjoy the environment if that's what it's like but I'm sure some private schools are more diverse than others and it'd be about finding a good fit as with any school.

but she’s always been exposed to a high level of books/vocabulary/museum trips etc., so even though she went to an ordinary state primary she probably doesn’t have an “ordinary” upbringing compared to the average child in a state primary.

are books & museum trips really not normal?

Access to plenty of books and museum trips sound pretty normal from what I saw at our state schools. Perhaps helped by the fabulous library in our town and free museum entry in Wales?

That doesn’t seem like the job of the state school - that’s surely the parent / carer job?

We have around 5,000 books just in our (teeny) house, eg. if she needs help with Latin homework there are 4 primers just lying around. Because of our jobs we have access to some quite unusual rare book and museum collections, so probably not the normal level of books and museums, not that those are necessary to get a bursary; but I think on balance what @Throughthebluebells says is unfortunately pretty accurate in the main.

And at DD’s school many kids didn’t visit museums or read many books outside the school setting/school trips. Of course, some did — but largely the ones with middle class, university-educated parents.

Our private school is pretty much knocking bursaries on the head for outside pupils and are now using them for current families who are struggling with the fees. Good I say! Everyone cheered when we were hammered by the VAT - All money should now be spent on current pupils. The school have also stopped all the free use of facilities by state schools. Good!

These schools are looking for the brightest children, or most skilled, or the ones who will end up playing a sport in a national team - to make their school seem exceptional
and attract more fee payers.
the mediocre and normal kids have their parents pay the fees.

@Juliagreeneyes I don't know any private school parents that have that many books!

And at DD’s school many kids didn’t visit museums or read many books outside the school setting/school trips. Of course, some did — but largely the ones with middle class, university-educated parents.

But lots of state school parents are middle class and university educated. Maybe it's an age or location thing.

I have yet to find a private school that allowed FREE use of their facilities. Renting out facilities is another thing entirely.
But VAT is here and if your school wants to help the already wealthy and not that bright or clever, that’s entirely their choice as a business.
Many, many more bright, low income kids will benefit from investment in state schools than the handful who were given genuine scholarships. And many more will benefit from the contextual offers and diversity programmes in place for state pupils.

Of course they aren't part of everyday life for many people in the UK. Why do you think kids are turning up to school not knowing how to turn a page and needing the purpose of books explained? Do you think these kids are taken to museums and have any kind of cultural capital if they don't even know how to handle a book?

Our private school is pretty much knocking bursaries on the head for outside pupils and are now using them for current families who are struggling with the fees

I helped a friend apply & we haven't found that, the income limits have reduced though. Schools ime still want very bright students but maybe it's a location thing again.

@Flick8 I didn't say that museums and books are normal for every single dc but I would have thought more normal than not particularly with books & museum trips at school. I would have thought it was abnormal to have never seen a book as opposed to the norm.

I’m waiting to see where this ‘investment’ in state schools will come from…certainly won’t be from the pittance they end up raising in VAT as the numbers in private are dropping fast. So far, Labour are just trashng the whole economy so I don’t hold out much hope 😂 Mine are finished soon thank goodness then.i can drop my hours to under the tax limit and they won’t get a penny more from me! I shall also claim for everything I possibly can - am entitled to PIP but never claimed as we could do without it. Totally sick of being used as a cash cow.

And our school allowed all local schools to use their pitches and swimming pool for free…as well as arranging and paying for tournaments every month… you obviously haven’t looked very hard.

Right, but most private school parents are paying the full fees. And of course many state school pupils have middle class parents. But here, we’re talking about the few kids who manage to get full or substantial bursaries/scholarships from state primaries - by definition not a large number. The OP was asking how people do it. The schools are looking, as people upthread have said, to attract unusually high-performing children whose parents fall below the income level for paying fees. But those parents often already have the knowledge or motivation to navigate that system, even if they don’t have the money.

A lot of the dc I know who won scholarships & bursary places are 2nd gen immigrants so I'm not sure that they already had the knowledge of the system but they do strongly believe in working very, very hard.