Is it possible for a normal child from a normal school to get a bursary for a top flight private school?

[Hisnutsroastingonanopenfire]

Idly wondering while reading the thoughts on what schools the royal children will attend and I looked at the schools mentioned, their entrance policies, scholarship and bursary schemes. It's not possible, is it, for a state school educated child to make the leap from what they learn at school to being able to pass those exams. Why don't state schools educate their brightest pupils to these standards? Or coach their sporty pupils to this level? Or support performing arts?

Education is failing our children because of poor funding and we seem to be pulling for a race to the bottom which widens the gap into a complete canyon. What's the answer?

A lot of State school teachers don't approve of private education.
Also, they have better things to do than advise parents and children on how to get into Private or even Grammar schools - why should they?

I think it’s fairly common to be offered a scholarship. My son was offered two because of his exceptional swimming abilities. I always mention scholarships to parents at the school I teach at. They look at raw talent, I’ve never known them refuse a child who has raw ability.
Contrary to popular Mumsnet belief, private schools are not the enemy, before the disgusting tax labour are putting on them, we had loads of help from them.

It absolutely is possible. The daughter of a TA at my daughter’s (state) primary got an 80% bursary to a top tier girls private secondary.

But as PPs have pointed out the children have to be academically very strong or be gifted at something (music or sports). It also requires the parents to be knowledgeable and very motivated so the odds are small.

I agree with a PP also that the state primaries are not usually great at putting kids forward for these opportunities. Whether it’s through ideology or lack of knowledge it doesn’t seem to register for most state primaries.

My DD’s primary wasn’t great at pushing kids forward for these sorts of opportunities. They were all assumed to be heading for one of three or four comprehensive secondary schools without question.

I don’t think private is always the best option by a long shot but it’s depressing how the system seems to entrench the lack of choice at such an early age.

Many independent schools will be quietly removing bursaries and scholarships from their future offering due to VAT. Some will divert those funds to help parents who are already paying fees but cannot afford the VAT. So in answer to your question, while it is possible for a state school child to get a funded place, it will become increasingly less likely.

Three of my friends/acquaintances have children with large but not 100% bursaries at top independent schools. One at St Paul's, one at Hampton and one at Eton. They were all tutored by their parents to pass the entrance exams. All parents fairly ambitious/pushy.

Maybe because State schools are also able to provide a great education for more able students? Both my DDs attended state schools, both were classed as ‘Good’ according to Ofsted whilst they were there. Both DDs have got great careers and earn in excess of £100k pa. 3 of my teacher friends work 9n the private sector - none earn as much as they would in a state school, have worse pensions and far more parent pressure. They do benefit from a couple of weeks extra holidays annually though.

My husband had a full scholarship single parent - back then no tutoring - but she was determined to get him in. His step brothers children more recently went to a very selective school on scholarships. All academic scholarships.

Their local secondary school is not great and hasn’t improved in the many years between it being an option for my husband or his step brother’s children!

We luckily to now live in an area with a few good secondary’s - the private schools in the area do have bursary/scholarships on offer. But it wasn’t something we looked at - my second child is very bright like her Dad but as said state secondary options are good so didn’t look into it.

Really? When I was in private school a lot of the other kids have a state school teacher as a parent.

They are obviously aware of failings of the state system and don't want that for their own kids

So teachers personal politics is part of why state education is getting worse year on year then?

But not all state schools do. Even from infants " you sit in the book corner while the rest of the class learns xx" to secondary where they too busy trying to get the kids up to a basic level ignoring all the brighter ones.

Very easy for the more able kids to become disillusioned when the the teacher asks a question and despite knowing the answers and putting up your hand you get constantly ignored while they waste 10 mins asking others who is haven't got a clue " er er dunno miss " While this time is being wasted more stuff could've been learned

A child in DD's primary class got a bursary to the Perse (very selective independent school in Cambridge), so it can be done. However they are very bright. Meanwhile DD is at one of the better state secondary options, where many do very well - I realise we were lucky to have the choice.

Many years ago the HT at the state primary called me in and told me that our son needed to go to a private school and would need a tutor in order to become familiar with the sort of questions on the exam papers.

Two of mine got bursaries from state to private. Neither tutored; state primary was OK. After being at the school for a few years they have since both gone on to win academic scholarships so are bright, but not at the top of the (academically selective) pile.

There are two different exams for Y9 entry (ie the big public entrance exams). One for prep kids, and one for essentially state, ie non Latin etc. The schools entirely cater for non prep kids to enter. Whether they could do more to court state school kids is political, (remember their model relies on fee payers!) but if they want state kids, there’s lots they could do. My bf was awarded 100% scholarship for them and their sister to attend private boarding school; they both had a particular talent that the school needed, and were head hunted from their state. Their parents had never considered private school; so it was entirely driven by the school trying to boost their talent field…

Absolutely. When my daughter (state, Scotland, aged about 9) said she hadn’t learned anything new in maths for about 2 years, I took it up with the head who told me “with my social conscience cap on we have to concentrate resources on the weaker children”. Instead of informing him quite how wrong he was (check out what the education act says you complete and utter buffoon!) we just decided to teach her maths herself. This was pretty easy, working through the relevant textbooks. Lockdown kicked in shortly after and the maths sent home we ignored as it was laughably inappropriate.

This is how state schools are failing our children. If you are a child with anything above average intelligence your needs are put to one side. It’s disgraceful.

Get them trained up in rugby or cricket and then the doors will open.

Maybe because State schools are also able to provide a great education for more able students

Some state schools are. Some aren’t. I don’t think private is always better for bright kids but I do think in areas where the state provision is poor, the state system should encourage those kids who have aptitude to try for bursaries at independent schools.

In some cases the state secondaries are better than the private schools but in others the state schools are desperately underfunded and woefully inadequate.

At my daughter’s primary I remember the information provided on secondary options at the information evening completely omitted any information about the independent options. When I raised the question the teachers looked at me as if it just didn’t register on their radar.

@Hisnutsroastingonanopenfire
"So teachers personal politics is part of why state education is getting worse year on year then?"

So you had an agenda from the start, and this was just yet another goady thread?

My son has just had an interview at Oxford despite attending a state school with all these awful teachers and their personal politics. Twat.

I agree

Why should they? To promote social mobility and give opportunities for children to break cycle of poverty.

We live in a grammer area, and to pass the 11+ in vast majority of cases needs specific tutoring. We are fortunate that we can afford this, but my daughter has several friends who are bright and could pass, but whose parents have already stated they will not be entering them as they cannot afford tutoring and their expectations are that their children will follow them into lower paid jobs, the children themselves already have this expectation also at age of 9. It's heartbreaking to see my daughters bright friends so limited in their aspirations at such a young age.

I got a scholarship to a private school, as did my brother. I chose not to go, but when it came time to apply for uni, my school were no use, all the info I got to help me get through the UCAS process was via my older brother having gone to uni 2 years before me, I doubt I would have got into my very competitive course without this. Schools should absolutely be supporting able students to acheive their full potential in their journey through education.

I tried to convince a friend her very sporty son could get a scholarship to one of the local private schools. She hated the idea and had a lot pinned on him doing well at the grammar instead. Unfortunately he has SEN and it is all proving too much. He has now decided he is off sports too so no going back there now. There's a lot of reverse snobbery about and a sense that grammars mean you are cleverer than private, so it "proves something" to force kids into that system instead.

OP, if you're in London have a look at Latymer Upper School in Hammersmith. At 11 plus, it's 50% entry from state primaries and 50% from independent. 25% of students there receive bursaries (can't comment on how many are on full bursaries though). They actively target children who would not otherwise have applied - including a Saturday school programme to familiarise them with the content of entrance exams, etc. The school achieves 95% 9-7 grades at GCSE every year. At 6th Form entry, there are 30 full bursary places.

Nearby girls school, Godolphin and Latymer also now runs a free Saturday 11 plus prep programme for children from local state primaries whose families would never think to apply otherwise.

These are just 2 schools in my local area - there are hundreds of others which do similar. Remember, everything is highly contextualised. In an interview, they will not expect a child who has been to a school where there are no inter-school football / rugby / tennis / whatever matches to be able to talk about such things. They know that sometimes, the Maths syllabus is taught in a different order in state schools and is aimed at SATS (rather than 11 plus), so they allow for this. They know that sometimes state school heads aren't great at writing the type of references independent schools ask for; or they require payment to write references. They know all this. All applicants are contextualised.

However - I do worry that the addition of VAT on school fees may mean that schools have to pull back on their bursary programmes. It's one thing offering eg. 10 free places at 9k per term, but when fees rise to 11k per term, that number is likely to shrink. Plus they may well be losing fee -paying students as well and need to make further cuts in terms of bursary programmes.

It is possible. My step child went to a normal primary and asked their Mum to do the exam for the local top private school. Naturally extremely clever and no additional tutoring and they got a full bursary.

67% of kids at Oxford come from state schools. I’m not sure getting an interview there is quite the win you think it is.

Yes it is possible, and there are pupils at the schools you are thinking of (presumably Eton, Oundle and Marlborough) who have previously been in the state sector. However, following the introduction of VAT on fees, those needing bursary support may find it more difficult as bursary provision is now being needed to support some existing pupils whose parents can no longer afford the fees.

Not at all. But if you think I'm a troll please report the thread.