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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Ageism,ignorance, intolerance. class bias on mumsnet re Waspi women

455 replies

CAJIE · 20/12/2024 00:27

I did not honestly expect any compensation though I might have hoped. Iwas aware of this change but did not have the chance to make extra provision for it.I do have a professional pension but will have to wait a while longer for the state pension which is extremely challenging.My plans were changed by covid and I doubt I will be employed again except possibly on poor and temporary contracts or gig economy.Secondary school supply on a daily basis has more or less gone.
However what appals me is the attitudes of many mumsnetters who assume that everyone has the abiity to understand pensions and that the Waspi women should have taken so called control of their situation.Maybe some could but there is a hell of a lot of class bias towards the women in lower paid jobs who perhaps were overwhelmed by struggling to survive and did not understand or read the news or the pension changes were not clearly explained to them.Pensions can be hard to understand and provoke anxiety.This appalling prejudice that all older people are rolling in it and this nice habit of some younger women to be sadly quite misogynistic and ageist towards women who are in poverty is very concerning.All sections of society should thrive even in older age and perhaps you younger women should be challenging society, housing costs, the whole ideology of owning a house and actually trying to build something new rather than bitching about what boomers have and their endless cruises etc.
.You are turning against your sex and the comments are cruel and harsh.You know nothing about these womens lives.
Starmer wants to punish older people and older women are always a good target.Your spite about all the things that boomers are supposed to have and you apparently dont is unpleasant.Women beware women.Very sad and against justice.

OP posts:
Cyclebabble · 20/12/2024 13:40

I am not sure I have seen much ageism, classism or misogyny on this issue on mumsnet. It is none of these things to think that no compensation should be paid and that the onus is on the individual to keep up with events.

LakieLady · 20/12/2024 13:43

Intheoldendays · 20/12/2024 07:19

While I'm not directly affected , I'm only just in my sixties - I have to agree on the way everyone under about 35 seems to think we are all absolutely loaded, whining brexiteers. Any other demographic of people sneered at like this would be up in arms, but apparently, we're all living in mortgage free houses muttering about young people and living the life of Riley.
It's absolutely pathetic, and I'm sick of it

I'm nearly 70, and I feel the same!

Yes, I have a mortgage-free house, but I came damn near to losing my home when interest rates went through the roof despite doing 3 jobs and renting my spare room in order to pay that mortgage. My "gold plated public sector pension" is a princely £300 a month before tax, and thanks to the personal allowance being frozen, I pay tax on almost all of it.

And I voted Remain and would be more likely to pluck out my own eyeballs than vote Tory.

Redbushteaforme · 20/12/2024 13:44

There have been awful comments about older women on this post and the first post about WASPI women. I'm not WASPI (a bit too young) but I think that women should stick together rather than playing into the 'divide and rule' scenario.

I am not sure that I agree with the blanket compensation to all WASPI women as some probably don't need it. Perhaps trying to target and compensate the women who actually suffered directly due to poor communication by the government would be a better approach. However, the fact remains that the Ombudsman investigated this issue (over six years, I believe) and found that there was clear evidence of maladministration for which WASPI women should be compensated.

I don't buy the argument that there is no money to pay compensation, as money can be found for all sorts of other things by government when it wants to.

To me, this is a clear case of Labour backtracking on promises, and thinking that they can get away with it because, well, 'it's only older women so who cares?'.

It has similarities to them being able to impose zero tolerance on offenders in the recent riots (quite rightly) at who knows what cost but failing to do anything to stop the everyday tsunami of violence against women and girls on the grounds of lack of resources.

The younger women on MN who have been more than happy to put the boot into older women on this issue should be ashamed of themselves.

RosesAndHellebores · 20/12/2024 13:55

As an older MNetter, the attitudes I read on here nowadays sadden me greatly. My DC are 29 and 26 now.

If one were to turn back the clock to the early noughties and MNet's first 20,000 members, I wonder if their daughters would share the views so often given here nowadays.

I understand that time moves on but the MNet community now is not representative of that early community on which MNet was founded.

AnneElliott · 20/12/2024 14:00

ismu · 20/12/2024 08:22

@Anonym00se it's clear that YOU don't understand pensions. While NI is not a personal pot it's intrinsically linked to contributions. It was part of retirement planning for many women and if anyone believes that 11 years contributions will add much to a pension they are a fool. Compound interest needs at least 25 years.
There have been a number of recent cases including the recent public sector remedy which have given WASPI women cause for hope. The fire service won a successful case against an increase in retirement age which has resulted in a complete backpedal by government. Of course they are mainly men.
The ombudsman's decision is just being completely ignored here because the women are disparate and not in one union. And are not men.

Just to be clear the McCloud judgement (which you are referring to) wasn't about the increase to the pension age for public sector pensions. The court ruled that protecting those closest to retirement (which incidentally the FBU campaigned hard for) was a form of age discrimination against younger people. Which of course it is, but the Gov argued (but ultimately lost) that there was a reasonable argument for doing so.

If the Gov had just applied the 2015 pension reform across the board with no differential and no protection for those closest to retirement then the challenge would likely have failed as there was no discrimination against any group of workers.

ARealitycheck · 20/12/2024 14:10

As I recall it was 1995 that the pension age was increased for Women. It was widely discussed in the news, newspapers, magazines. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that these women didn't know about it, and if they did they had any amount of opportunity to look into some form of pension/savings scheme.

wombat15 · 20/12/2024 14:14

RosesAndHellebores · 20/12/2024 13:55

As an older MNetter, the attitudes I read on here nowadays sadden me greatly. My DC are 29 and 26 now.

If one were to turn back the clock to the early noughties and MNet's first 20,000 members, I wonder if their daughters would share the views so often given here nowadays.

I understand that time moves on but the MNet community now is not representative of that early community on which MNet was founded.

I think it shows a generational divide that didn't use to exist. It's due to the fact that many over 60 are much better off financially than younger generations. That wasn't the case 30 years ago. If you add in the fact that they were more likely to vote for Brexit and than younger prices the backlash was inevitable.

khaitai · 20/12/2024 14:17

To me, this is a clear case of Labour backtracking on promises, and thinking that they can get away with it because, well, 'it's only older women so who cares?'.

I'm sorry but I just find these arguments so frustrating. The facts show that financial policies have been heavily skewed towards older people for decades.

We have 4 million children living in poverty, we have old people sat on the side of the road for hours after a fall, we have people living in cramped and squalid HMOs. There are so many awful injustices right now that it really rankles when older women in this thread (many of whom are financially fine) try to claim they're somehow at the bottom of the pile. Out of touch much?

Saturdayssandwichsociety · 20/12/2024 14:22

Intheoldendays · 20/12/2024 07:19

While I'm not directly affected , I'm only just in my sixties - I have to agree on the way everyone under about 35 seems to think we are all absolutely loaded, whining brexiteers. Any other demographic of people sneered at like this would be up in arms, but apparently, we're all living in mortgage free houses muttering about young people and living the life of Riley.
It's absolutely pathetic, and I'm sick of it

Take a look at the Generational Accounts 2011 statistics posted up thread and it might help you to understand just why younger generations are so cross.
There is literally proof that yes, the nations finances are skewed (and not just a bit... Massively) in favour of the older generation

BustopherPonsonbyJones · 20/12/2024 14:23

I have some sympathy but, ultimately, Waspi women were still able to retire at an earlier age than women now and 60 was/is very young to retire so most of them could have continued to work if they were really struggling financially. Also, the country has no money and paying billions out for this would have been ridiculous. Surely the choice was to keep working (as the rest of us have to do) if the finances didn’t allow retirement at 60? Unpleasant but no worse than their children and grandchildren will have to do and not worth bankrupting the country for it. Irrelevant if it affects women or men to be honest.

RosesAndHellebores · 20/12/2024 15:04

Zilla1 · 20/12/2024 09:25

How would not increasing the pension age have precluded you from those actions? How did raising the pension age give you a 'cracking shot...'?

Because if I'd have had to retire at 60, the employer would not have invested in professional qualifications if I'd had only 14 years to run.

NutNutmum · 20/12/2024 15:07

ARealitycheck · 20/12/2024 14:10

As I recall it was 1995 that the pension age was increased for Women. It was widely discussed in the news, newspapers, magazines. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that these women didn't know about it, and if they did they had any amount of opportunity to look into some form of pension/savings scheme.

A lot of women who had part time jobs and looked after their kids, the closest they got to newspapers and magazines were in the fish and chip wrapping.

I know my mother a Waspi woman hardly ever had 2 minutes to put 50p in the TV and watch the news. 🙄

Shwish · 20/12/2024 15:08

TheFancyDuck · 20/12/2024 11:35

@Ginmonkeyagain do you think it's fair that a generation where more than 90% of people started work at 15, so will have worked for 52 years by the time the reach 67, who it was perfectly legal and accepted were paid less than men, who had no free childcare or tax free childcare or indeed any childcare unless family stepped up, who got 6 weeks maternity pay, whose jo bs only had to be held open for them for six weeks, who had no discrimination protection and could be sacked on a whim and yet continued to pay NI so that people older than them would get a pension should have the recompense of retiring earlier taken away from them?
The reality is that most of the younger whiners (they're rude about my generation, sauce for the goose etc) start actual work around 22 so will have worked and contributed for 45 years by the time they are 67.
When every person reaching pension age has h ad exactly the same conditions and protections for the whole of their working life then pension ages should obviously be the same. Until then every single person claiming their free childcare should worry that the waspi generation might decide in future that it isn't fair to pay for things that they didn't benefit from themselves and vote with their feet.

Yeah I think it's fair. And actually I'm 45 years old, started work at 16 so will be working for 52 years. WHY should you expect to retire earlier than everyone else or expect us to pay you off? What exactly makes you special?

khaitai · 20/12/2024 15:20

A lot of women who had part time jobs and looked after their kids, the closest they got to newspapers and magazines were in the fish and chip wrapping. I know my mother a Waspi woman hardly ever had 2 minutes to put 50p in the TV and watch the news.

Oh come on. The oldest WASPI women are 75 now, not 100. The Pension Act came in in 2011!

NutNutmum · 20/12/2024 15:23

khaitai · 20/12/2024 15:20

A lot of women who had part time jobs and looked after their kids, the closest they got to newspapers and magazines were in the fish and chip wrapping. I know my mother a Waspi woman hardly ever had 2 minutes to put 50p in the TV and watch the news.

Oh come on. The oldest WASPI women are 75 now, not 100. The Pension Act came in in 2011!

You obviously don't remember having your Tv on the never never and eating fish and chips in the paper. Not that long ago, showing yourself up now are you a millennial.

khaitai · 20/12/2024 15:26

You obviously don't remember having your Tv on the never never and eating fish and chips in the paper. Not that long ago, showing yourself up now are you a millennial.

Yes I'm a millennial. The changes to pensions happened in 1995 and 2011. I remember those years and no we weren't putting 50p in the TV and no my mum didn't only get access to news through the fish and chip paper.

RosesAndHellebores · 20/12/2024 15:27

Interesting views on this thread. DH and I are 63 and 64. Still working full time in stressful professional jobs.

DH's parents retired at 52 (CEGB) on a stupendous package (1982) and 57 (teacher) on an enhanced package due to redundancy when the middle school system was restructured (1997).

RosesAndHellebores · 20/12/2024 15:30

khaitai · 20/12/2024 15:26

You obviously don't remember having your Tv on the never never and eating fish and chips in the paper. Not that long ago, showing yourself up now are you a millennial.

Yes I'm a millennial. The changes to pensions happened in 1995 and 2011. I remember those years and no we weren't putting 50p in the TV and no my mum didn't only get access to news through the fish and chip paper.

Well I'm 64 and don't ever remember putting 50p in the telly or eating out of the chip paper. Neither does my mother and we were born in 1936 and 1960.

ClicketyClickPlusOne · 20/12/2024 15:40

Well, there weren’t any 50ps to put in the telly when I was growing up , and a 10/- note would have been hard to stuff in , and the equivalent of a days wages for a teenager.

But TVs were very expensive, most people we knew rented them from Reduffusion, and we didn’t have colour for ages and ages (really expensive!)

Fish and Chips were cheap however, and whilst they were wrapped in newspaper there was a layer of waxed paper type stuff next to the good.

NutNutmum · 20/12/2024 15:44

RosesAndHellebores · 20/12/2024 15:30

Well I'm 64 and don't ever remember putting 50p in the telly or eating out of the chip paper. Neither does my mother and we were born in 1936 and 1960.

Not hard to look up 🙄

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1967181/coin-operated-tvs

https://www.reddit.com/r/BritishTV/comments/11vynzy/skytvcoinbox/

Coin operated TV's

I remember one of my mum's friends had one of these when I was a kid in the late 80's.

https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1967181/coin-operated-tvs

owlpineapple · 20/12/2024 15:45

@ismu
The people on this thread who whine
"We will work till we're 80 and never buy a house"
if you don't like this, fight it, change it, improve it!!!

I've been fighting most of my adult life for this. I've sent a great many letters to MPs over the years (in fact I recently came across one I wrote in 2011 and another in 2012) and have had numerous meetings with them. On top of that I voted Remain. I voted Labour and watched the Tories get in again and again. What else can we do? I'm open to ideas if you actually have any.

@IntheoldendaysI have to agree on the way everyone under about 35 seems to think we are all absolutely loaded, whining brexiteers. Any other demographic of people sneered at like this would be up in arms, but apparently, we're all living in mortgage free houses muttering about young people and living the life of Riley.

The only ageism I've seen on this thread (granted, I can see a number of posts from one person have been deleted) have been from posts like yours, lumping a generation into one homogenous group, i.e. doing the very thing you accuse them of doing.

I'm under no illusion that all pensioners are mortgage free and loaded and would never claim anything of the kind. My mother's family were poor. My grandfather worked much of his life down the pit doing dreadful work and he came away with nothing much to show for it. There were many men like him in his mining village, some of whom were disabled from mining accidents and/or suffering from respiratory diseases, but still more fortunate than the many who lost their lives. Then the government pocketed nearly £5bn of surplus profits from the Miners Pension Scheme and it's taken until 2024 for any of this to be handed back to miners. Not all men (a phrase I never thought I'd use) were off advancing their careers at the expense of their wives. Neither my grandmother nor my mother (who is of WASPI age, never worked a day in her life) wanted to work and were more than happy to be dependent on their husbands, regardless of what toll it took on them.

Anyway, I digress. I vividly recall article after article in the 2010s bemoaning Millennials. We were the feckless generation, the 'avocado on toast' generation, the 'bank of mum and dad' generation. The entitled, lazy, financially irresponsible and tech-obsessed generation. And which generation was it that was doing the vast majority of this sneering?

I worked from the age of 16, university wasn't on the cards because there was no way I could have afforded it despite desperately wanting to go. I tried to get onto apprenticeships but by that point the numbers had already dwindled significantly and most were aimed at men. I struggled to advance my career because most jobs expected you to have a degree. And I was, in fact, asked if I was planning on becoming pregnant at more than one job interview. I had no bank of mum and dad because my dad died, and I was never given a penny by my mother. So in my late 20s I decided to do a part time degree in the hope of increasing my earning potential. As of last year I'm a graduate in her mid 30s with years of transferrable experience behind her, but have yet to acquire a graduate job because I'm up against thousands of applicants competing for the meagre number of graduate positions available, despite the supposed demand for people with skills and knowledge in the subject I studied.

So no, I don't feel that I'm being ageist, ignorant, intolerant or possessing a class bias for feeling this was the correct decision. As for the claims of misogyny, is it not misogynistic to suggest that women are incapable of understanding changes to their pension?

wombat15 · 20/12/2024 15:46

NutNutmum · 20/12/2024 15:07

A lot of women who had part time jobs and looked after their kids, the closest they got to newspapers and magazines were in the fish and chip wrapping.

I know my mother a Waspi woman hardly ever had 2 minutes to put 50p in the TV and watch the news. 🙄

Edited

50p in the TV? When was this?!

MerryMaker · 20/12/2024 15:51

@wombat15 In the 70s and 80s if you were poor, you could rent a TV that had a coin meter in. Most people rented a TV and paid a monthly cost, but by the 80s people were mainly buying TVs. But they were expensive, so the coin slot was for the poorest people.

wombat15 · 20/12/2024 15:53

NutNutmum · 20/12/2024 15:23

You obviously don't remember having your Tv on the never never and eating fish and chips in the paper. Not that long ago, showing yourself up now are you a millennial.

I remember renting as television from Radio rentals in the 1970s and 80s but it didn't involve putting 50 pence in the TV. We just went in the shop and paid rent. You can rent TVs today.

RosesAndHellebores · 20/12/2024 15:55

@NutNutMum I think you have missed the point. I said neither my mother nor I had ever put 50p in the telly or eaten straight from the chip paper. I didn't say PAYG telly didn't exist.

When MNet was populated by us late boomers, in the old days, the quality of posts was exceptional.

Whilst I can't claim my OAP until I'm 66 and something, it's fine because I love work, made a seven figure fortune on property, married a very successful man and if it gets too bad here, we'll bugger off to our home in France having passed the bulk of our money to our children to avoid inheritance tax. Both are planning to relocate overseas.

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