To be annoyed at being told to be considerate of disabled people

[DefendingPan]

This sign was in the disabled toilet in a restaurant (which is also the only baby change in the restaurant).

What’s the point of this sign? What might parents be doing that they will stop after reading this?

Yes! Exactly my point - the inclusion of changing spaces is not a natural consequence of disabled toilets or accessible toilets, but a conscious business decision to accommodate customers with children and encourage them into that space.

It’s bloody hard work and limiting taking out a teenager who will throw a fit and start attacking you because their chips aren’t the right shade of beige. Sadly as they’ve got older and now as a young adult it’s impossible to manage as a sole carer. But accessing toilets hasn’t been part of the issue, no.

Blue badge spots weren’t converted into P&C spaces, though.

Baby change was placed in the disabled toilet because only the disabled toilet has enough room for it - standard cubicles do not. As others have pointed out, some businesses have created large cubicles within the main cubicles and placed baby change in there - that isn’t a watering down of disabled facilities. But where baby change has been put solely in the disabled toilets, that facility has become available only because disabled people campaigned for the original space.

The same is true of wheelchair spaces on buses, which are now only wheelchair-priority because accessibility has taken over and the space is co-opted by pram-users.

The retailer may not have consciously decided “oh I love these new mum customers, I’ll screw over disabled people to cater to them”, but that is the natural consequence of baby change being put in the only space large enough to accommodate it, being also the only space large enough for wheelchair users. Had that fight not been won, there would’ve been nowhere to put baby change at all without retailers creating brand new spaces (and we’ll see how many value parent customers that much if the legislation changes to prevent businesses from putting baby change in the wheelchair-toilets).

Mothers and babies are treated with contempt on mn.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on Mumsnet.

That sounds really stressful. It must be really tough. I hope you're OK and have support IRL.

Yeah.

I still don’t know what they wanted me to do differently. If it was to return the baby shelf to the upright position they should have just said that because it wasn’t clear what I was being asked off. Instead I just felt like the owner was passive aggressively calling me inconsiderate.

In some places, car parks are now doing a 'shared use' system for disabled/mother and baby spaces.

Yes it pisses me off every bit as much as the 'only baby change is in the disabled toilets' thing.

FYI, all of who who either have a radar key or will go and ask for one at customer services.

Many places that lock the disabled toilets and then make you ask for a key, have intentionally fitted the lock incorrectly (wrong way round) so that it can be opened with the key even if someone is in there and has locked it behind them.

Do keep this in mind when using the facilities, as it means if you used your own key, then a person who has been handed the key may not realise and just unlock the door and walk in. And of course someone with their own key may do same.

Most disabled toilets, its actually then impossible to tell if it is simply locked but vacant, or locked and occupied and there are people who won't SAY anything when you knock on the door (and there are people who just don't knock.)

See attached title page
Baby changing facilities discussed 6 June 2023 Parliament

Theres one Lord that notes the cost of installing units as £2500 to £5000, a lot for a small business
It’s no surprise that Smaller businesses these days have one unisex, accessible WC with integral baby changing unit ( disabled people have children too ). Due to cost and space constraints.
Given the debate last year, the House of Lords, at least questioned us becoming to much of a nanny state……
haven’t seen any recent debate info in the House of Commons

The issue is it probably isn't strictly one single thing. It could be a plethora of things. A list too long to put on one simple sign.

Maybe it’s to remind the people go in there to vape, shag or shoot heroin.

It can be really difficult to speak up when we need to. I'm autistic and can't always communicate.

I'm a wheelchair user and I now have to avoid certain places I once adored because of the total lack of foresight and planning for disabled people, and the impact that a high level of families visiting has on the two disabled facilities at that location.

Some of the comments on this thread have made me think some very uncharitable thoughts. The one earlier on about mums and dads having no thought towards their needs - seriously, there are many things you can do depending on where you are, what you've had the genius to pack with you and how old your child is etc.

A poonami might seem urgent but compared to a disabled person having to deal with their own poonami as a result of the wait for you, I somewhat think it's worse to be an adult in that situation than a baby, no?

You took that sign personally?
I think you need therapy! And yes of course put the baby shelf back! You seriously needed to be told that?!

I just felt like the owner was passive aggressively calling me inconsiderate

They really weren't. This is really disordered thinking on your part @DefendingPan .

There are signs and announcements all around us that are reminders to some people to act considerately or within the law. I see and hear them and recognise them for what they are. If they don't apply to me (like the speaker reminder not to travel on my train without a ticket on my train, and what would happen if I did, the other day) I pay them no mind.

When you come across car parks combining parent and child and disabled spaces you need to complain to your local council. Parent and child parking is a concession, not a legal right, whereas provision of dedicated blue badge parking is a legal requirement. They are breaking the law. Disabled people are not required to compete with other groups for their parking spaces - they are a stand alone provision.

So why are so many of them sited in disabled toilets ?

Anything that combines facilities that disabled people have campaigned for with another group (unless at the same time significantly increasing the amount of provision - as if!) is going to leave those with disabilities who need the provision at a disadvantage.

a person with a disability will have one toilet they can access, one space on the bus they can access. Two or three spaces in the car park. If those facilities are then expected to be shared with another large group they are left unable to access what they need to access normal day to day life.

This is the most unintentionally funny statement l’ve ever seen on MN - even more so because it’s on a thread burgeoning with parental entitlement !!!

Because of convenience for the business. If they weren’t bothered about encouraging mothers into their space they wouldn’t install one at all, given we’ve established it’s not a legal requirement. Like mother and baby parking spaces - they’re to attract your custom not to meet a statutory obligation.

I don’t think you can combine them - a space cannot be dual purpose. I’m aware disabled users have a right to park in mother and baby spaces but the reverse right does not exist. They have to meet a minimum no of disabled spaces so having disabled spaces as shared would undermine that.

I presume, possibly incorrectly as Ive never come across these signs, that the disabled bays are strictly disabled bays however it's been highlighted to parents that disabled people may use the P&C spots when there are no disabled bays available which of course has always been the case but you only have to read half a dozen mumsnet threads to see people having a go at adults without children daring to park in P&C spots and not having the courtesy to bend down and kiss the toes of parents whilst listing every single disability that might entitled them to use of a wide, closer to the door space.

Although I think as you pointed out its still worth complaining about as its obviously causing confusion to lay people walking past!

You definitely can’t combine them. I suppose it’s possible that the signage is causing confusion if the provider is attempting to highlight that disabled users can legally use P&C spaces in the absence of free disabled ones. If not, then the provider is breaking the law.

During the run up to Christmas a couple of years ago, l remember being in a queue at a supermarket customer services desk and the whole queue was being treated to a mum complaining that she had just returned to her car to find a parking ticket - she had parked in a disabled space and was trying to convince the supervisor that because the P&C spaces were in the same area, she had confused them, and it was the supermarket’s fault for putting them next to each other. The supervisor was trying to point out that the car park was operated by a separate concern and nothing to do with them, when someone from the back of the queue piped up with ‘next time love, you might want to see the big white wheelchair painted on the floor as a bit of a clue’!! Exit one red faced mum !!

what a horrible thread title.
I do wish baby change was not in the disabled toilet. as a parent to an adult wheelchair user I can assure you that if they have an "accident" it will be more traumatic for them than a baby.
why don't parents campaign for their own facilities.

I was reminded of this anecdote today, this post has triggered me think about situations where I’ve used the disabled toilets with the kids.

The gym I use has a combined disabled and family change. There are several changing rooms. There is one singular toilet in that changing area. Clearly it’s totally impractical for you to leave those changing rooms and access another (via the gym floor) when you’re getting changed with kids, so that is not the intention of the design. The changing rooms are designed with a shower in situ so you have a wet room with a space to change and a shower. So suitable for both families and the disabled.

At another gym with the same set up, a toddler drowned whilst the parent was distracted with their other child. I’m not sure of the exact circumstances but another gym member must have opened the door to the pool and allowed the child out. The doors from the changing rooms are heavy and the handles high presumably to stop young children allowing themselves into the pool.

This is the sort of safeguarding I’m talking about when saying young children need to be contained sometimes for safeguarding. Imagine, using the other changing rooms and leaving a child outside the cubicle - singing and then finding they’ve left and they’re now face down in the pool - which could well have been the reality for that parent. Sometimes you really just need eyes and direct contact/containment with kids. Mine are a bit older now so the little one generally comes in with me and the older uses another cubicle. Sometimes we all squash in together too. But it obviously depends on the cubicles.

Also want to add I’m not posting that to validate myself just to share some of the thoughts provoked by this discussion and reflect on my own actions - which I will be more mindful of now in light of comments from other posters.