To be annoyed at being told to be considerate of disabled people

[DefendingPan]

This sign was in the disabled toilet in a restaurant (which is also the only baby change in the restaurant).

What’s the point of this sign? What might parents be doing that they will stop after reading this?

Honestly look at the quotes. I made this comment to point out how ridiculous a similar comment about parents was. Not because I believe it 🙄

It’s getting really tiresome being misquoted. Some people are so intent on proving a point that they’re discrediting comments made only to illustrate how ridiculous another posters comments was about choice.

I used to change my babies nappy in the boot of the car. I had all the stuff I needed including change of clothes. My toddler came in the cubicle with me - fun times. I would never have considered using a disabled facility. I would guilty slip in with a baby in a pram and a toddler but only if it was for me and there was no queue and there were no other facilities suitable where we could all fit.

All of this. There seems to be a perception among many people that disabled people have special privileges lavished on them and seem to regard the few concessions made to the disabled as 'perks'. When in reality, just living our lives present barriers that would not be considered acceptable for any other minority group.

Just a few very recent ones (I have 100s I could refer to):

I organised a hotel stay for the family recently including DS. The hotel was 'traditional' and not accessible for wheelchairs. So the rest of the family were accommodated in the historical building whereas we had to stay in the soulless 1960s annexe and have a chilly walk to the main building for breakfast every day. As the grand entrance had steps to it, unlike the other paying customers we had to use the tradesmen's entrance at the back.

We were invited to join a show with other friends/family members. We couldn't go because most of the wheelchair spaces were sold and the remaining ones were in places where we would have had to sit DS with one companion, which would defeat the purpose of attending a show with friends/family members. So unless things are planned far in advance with military precision, we can't take part.

And just today: we got a bus home from a day out. The wheelchair space was occupied by a child in the buggy which was not moved by the parent so we had to make do; even though it is clearly stated that the space needs to be cleared if needed by a wheelchair user. This happens all the time, it is actually very rare that the space is cleared for DS. I have the wretched choice of arguing with the parent to move the space (not what I want to do after a nice day out and in front of DS and children), or just letting it go and instead feeling I have let DS down by not standing up for him.

I agree with other posters that notions of 'accessibility' and 'inclusivity' have led people to believe that all this is acceptable.

Absolutely nobody thinks disabled people “have special privileges” and I haven’t seen that attitude on this thread at all. What I have seen, is posters, like me, who recognise that large toilets might be advantageous for other users. Nobody has argued that need is greater and should be prioritised, nobody has argued that a disabled person should be disadvantaged. But what has been argued is that where changing tables are also in disabled toilets parents should also be expected and allowed to use them.

Yes me too but if it’s not practical I’d use the closest facility.

Always tell the bus driver. They're legally obligated to make sure they move for you and it should be their confrontation and not yours. They're the captain of that vessel and you'd not be in the wrong for making them act as such and uphold the law.

I agree with that and sometimes I do; though with mixed (at best) results. And it can be hard to get the driver's attention when for safety reasons I can't leave the wheelchair.

If you can muster the energy and you remember which buses and which times you got on, please email the bus company with your complaint because the fact of the matter is you shouldn't even have to ask the driver to make sure they're doing their job and you're right it would compromise your child's safety to leave the wheelchair there and the driver is also responsible for the safety of the passengers and should not be setting off until wheelchairs are in the designated wheelchair spot.

I'm sure the bus company would be furious to learn that one of their drivers put several passengers at risk by driving when a wheelchair was unsecured, as its a litigation nightmare.

It can get absolutely tedious complaining over and over so if you can't I understand. Being a carer is hard enough. These rights were already fought for and shouldn't need fighting for again.

But if it does happen again and you can, please do and hold nothing back.

I'm sorry people are such shits.

It is weird that you believe that nobody thinks disabled people have privileges when I think this attitude just jumps out of some of the posters on here. And I am sure that a large toilet would probably be 'advantageous' for most people; but it is only disabled people who absolutely need them.

I agree as it happens that it is stupid to put the only changing table in the disabled loo (though believe it or not, there is such a thing as disabled parents who also need them).

'....nobody has argued that a disabled person should be disadvantaged.' But the plain fact is that they are disadvantaged, all the time. If parents want better facilities they should lobby for them, as the disabled lobbied for years to be granted theirs. The fact is that parents haven't and won't lobby as they only have to struggle for a short time before their children grow up; whereas the disabled just have to deal with the next generation of selfish people.

Thanks @Jimmyneutronsforehead and yes you are absolutely right that I need to complain about this whenever I can. It does make me very angry though that we are still having to fight over again for what is a legal right. But the attitudes of certain posters on here make it very clear why it is necessary.

I have had issues like this since my DS was a young boy, he is now in his 20s. I really had hope that one day these problems would be things of the past; but if anything it has got worse. It is really depressing.

That was my comment. Why is it ridiculous ? Disability due to lifestyle choices makes up a very small proportion overall. I didn’t choose to be born with a disability that put me in a wheelchair. Millions of others didn’t choose similar. Disability is not a conscious choice, parenthood is. You understand exactly what I’m saying and if you have to make this much of a reach perhaps you should take a look at yourself because you’re not exactly covering yourself in glory with spurious comments like this.

👏👏👏

So once born, a child is an extension of their parents and doesn’t also have rights to hygiene and care?

For women in many circumstances owing to culture, poverty and abuse having children isn’t a “choice” either and there is absolutely no way to distinguish between those women as you go about your day. Irrespective, I fail to understand why the circumstances of a child’s conception should dictate whether or not they get their nappy changed and why that is at all relevant to attending to their most basic needs.

But you’re not getting that disabled people have lobbied long and hard, and faced discrimination to get larger toilets established as the norm. The changing of the name from ‘disabled’ to ‘accessible’ is the problem. It takes away agency from disabled people and does disadvantage them, however much you like to think it doesn’t.

Of course children have rights to hygiene and care. But those rights do not trump the needs of a disabled adult who, through no fault of their own need to access a suitable toilet in order not to have a public and embarrassing accident. Those toilets were previously designated as for the disabled. Then re designated ‘accessible’ which means free for all, including baby changing. So any agency the disabled person has, and any right to priority they may have had because of their circumstance has been lost with that redesignation. There’s no logic to it, except that it saves some money for businesses because they don’t have to provide separate facilities for both. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you. Sorry, I really can’t engage with you any more because you’re talking nonsense and the more you reach, the more ridiculous you make yourself look.

Babies are incontinent and also unable to walk so need prams which take up space. They have a right to use the facilities provided for them. It's unfortunate if their facilities are put in the disabled toilet.
I wouldn't expect a mum to leave her baby/toddler outside the cubicle unattended.
Everybody should be able to use the toilet facilites safely but sometimes you'll have to queue.
Ideally the standard cubicles would be larger for everyone to use but not always possible. I'm sure most people don't hang around in the toilet for longer than they need to.

But those rights do not trump the needs of a disabled adult who, through no fault of their own needs to access a suitable toilet in order not to have a public and embarrassing accident.

This is what I struggle with - nobody is saying those needs are greater, they are not mutually exclusive. Both needs can exist at the same time and evidently they do otherwise they’d be no discussion to be had. Parents are not trying to insert their needs above those of disabled people, they are not asking for priority, but recognising the need of disabled people does not diminish the needs of their child. Whereas the attitudes on this thread seem to be that parents should put their needs aside on principle, as though that would someone strength a disabled persons entitlement to such facilities.

You are free to stop posting at anytime, you don’t need to announce it.

Not one person on here has suggested that children don't have rights to hygiene and care. But my DS was a baby once and I can assure you that there is absolutely no comparison between changing a baby's nappy and the personal needs of a disabled adult, the latter is infinitely harder and by an order of magnitude.

I don't want to, and don't see why I should have to, explain on here the difficulties of caring for an adult who may be incontinent or have other challenges that make it essential to have access to a toilet when they need one, and the potential loss of dignity when they can't. Pitting the needs of babies & their parents against those of disabled people; suggesting they are on a par with each other; trying to claim that having children isn't a 'choice' in the same way that disability isn't a choice; says it all.

You really have no understanding of the issues at stake here and I don't see why I should have to spend my time trying to get oblivious people like you to understand.

This thread is making me increasingly unhappy. The ablism is all over it for us to see, and the perpetrators will persist in denying it. No wonder my DS life is made so hard.

Somebody actually argued upthread that businesses don't care about the disabled because there aren't enough of them and they don't pull in enough money. Yes they actually feel comfortable stating that openly.

Show me where anyone has suggested anywhere on this thread that children and babies don’t have a right to hygiene. But I’m sorry, there is no comparison between the needs of a baby, and the needs of a full grown disabled adult with continence problems - many of whom have those problems on top of profound disability. You really have little idea of the issues involved, and are reaching for ridiculous arguments to make non existent points. If you can’t see that it’s ridiculous to make disabled toilets accessible to those without disabilities and thereby potentially subject profoundly disabled people to the indignity of soiling themselves in public because they can’t access the one and only facility they are able to use, then I really can’t help you.

It's pointless when you can buy the darn keys on eBay. Someone offered me a 'spare' one the other day having bought a pack of them.

It’s not unfortunate, it’s deliberate, and it’s inappropriate. I wouldn’t expect a mum to leave her baby or toddler unattended. But I also wouldn’t expect changing a baby to take priority over a disabled adult about to have a public accident because they can’t access the one and only toilet they are able to use.

They used to be regulated and you had to provide proof of disability to get one. Everything has it’s price.

The only businesses who appear to care about disabled people these days are the ones offering disability products at vastly inflated prices.