To be annoyed at being told to be considerate of disabled people

[DefendingPan]

This sign was in the disabled toilet in a restaurant (which is also the only baby change in the restaurant).

What’s the point of this sign? What might parents be doing that they will stop after reading this?

It’s complete hyperbole to suggest every parent behaves that way.

It’s ironic that you’re here discussing how to be more inclusive and your solution is to exclude a whole class of people and insult them. This thread does not reflect well on disabled people.

Agree. The thing is, and it’s what most people are overlooking here, there is a legal requirement for the provision of toilets that can be accessed by disabled people. But there is no legal requirement for the provision of facilities for mums with children or for baby changing facilities. They are a concession, in the same way as disabled parking spaces are legally enforceable, whereas mum and baby ones aren't.

Now before I get jumped on, I don’t agree with that, but here’s my point. Disabled people and their organisations have fought long and hard to get these concessions enshrined in law. So it can hardly be a surprise when they get pissed because someone has come up with changing ‘disabled’ to ‘accessible’ and watered down those concessions so that the world and his wife can seemingly use them at will, without any trouble, and all in the name of ‘inclusion’.

In other words if you parents out there want baby changing facilities and better facilities for keeping your children safe while using the loos, then fight the good fight to get your own stand alone facilities established, instead of piggy backing on the efforts of others. And the rest of you who have no good reason to use facilities meant for those with problems you can know nothing of without experiencing them for yourselves, try using the standard loos whenever you can instead of the accessible ones as an easy option.

The problem is the facilities are there are we are using them appropriately, but you have decided we aren’t. That’s not your decision to make. Like it or not parents are a source of custom and good for business. We are not piggy backing changing our children on a table provided.

You’d just get the parents who use them now buying radar keys on ebay so that they could still use them.

The same way that some of them have abused the sunflower lanyard system to secure speedy boarding on planes.

The only solution to this is to move the baby change out of the disabled facility and into a separate location where any parent can use it. The problem is that parents don’t want to campaign for that when they can just use spaces meant for disabled people, even when that means disabled people are prevented from accessing those spaces, and argue that they’re doing nothing wrong because accessibility/child safety/whatever.

Nothing on this thread is going to convince anyone doing this otherwise. Their convenience is simply more important to them.

Disabled people are not required to be polite and kind when discussing the life-limiting impacts of how the protections they fought for have been watered down. Especially not to the people who are justifying that state of affairs.

Now we have grown adults arguing babies with soiled bottoms are lower down on the list of priorities than them.

Likewise, parents do not need to be polite when meeting their children’s basic needs.

We’re not discussing how to be more inclusive. It’s being more inclusive that has triggered this discussion. The word ‘accessible’ has replaced ‘disabled’ and taken away any real meaning behind providing these facilities for the very people who need them the most. And no-one is being excluded - there are a wide range of larger cubicles - ambulent toilet facilities within standard blocks. Those without any disability, who just need a larger facility can still use those. Lockable stand alone toilet rooms should be locked and that way they stay available for those who really need them.

And as for the notion that the thread doesn’t reflect well on disabled people - have you actually read some of the disgusting, ableist comments upthread ? Disabled people are getting sick of perfectly able bodied people trying to shoehorn themselves into eligibility for every single concession meant for the disabled - from benefits to travel concessions, priority spaces on buses and trains, and disabled access. They put up with shitty comments about being workshy and getting ‘free cars’ and now it seems they have to apologise for wanting to pee or change a stoma bag, or just use a loo that was designed for their disability, without having to wait until they have an accident, because someone has decided their need is greater.

And once more with feeling, facilities for baby changing and childrens’ needs is not a legal right. Disabled facilities are. They’ve been hard fought and won over years of discrimination. Why are you so surprised that disabled people get annoyed when others consider, yet again, that they have a right to piggy back on that at their expense ? Parenthood is a choice. Disability is not.

you're speaking into the void. they have decided that their abled bodied childrens needs will always be greater than the disabled people she shoves them in front of, and no amount of reasonable response will change that view.

Nope. We have grown adults discussing what’s acceptable and what’s not. Faced with making a decision as to whether a baby can wait a few minutes to be changed if it allows a disabled adult to access the only facility they can use (and was actually designed for them) and prevents them from having a very embarrassing and public accident I know which I’d see as the priority. I think the fact that you haven’t considered this, frankly says more about you.

Bingo. And “accessibility” has given people like this a reason to think they’re the ones in the right.

But the mother also needs to use the loo! I have the tiniest pram on the market (it counts as hand luggage in a plane) but it won’t fit in a standard cubicle when it has a child in it! When my children were small, I did tend to change them on my knee m, often while kneeling on the floor as some places don’t bother to provide any changing facilities at all, but there is no way I’m going to leave the child in a pram outside while I have a locked cubicle door between us! The simplest solution is to provide a parent/child toilet with a changing table in it.

Spot on. That’s always been my point. ‘Accessible’ means different things to different people, so everyone feels entitled. Disabled concessions however, are the only ones enforceable by law. For everyone else it’s a concession and not legally enforceable. That’s why I think reintroducing radar keys for locked toilet rooms is probably a good idea. ‘Accessible’ cubicles in standard blocks can be used by everyone. Toilet rooms designed for wheelchair users/significantly disabled people and their carers should be user specific.

The simplest solution is to provide a parent/child toilet with a changing table in it.

And that’s what parents should be lobbying for, in the same way as disabled people lobbied for proper disabled facilities.

No, you’re piggy backing on a changing table placed in a toilet meant for the use of disabled people. The name change from ‘disabled’ to ‘accessible’ facilitates that without existing businesses having to spend any more money, and also allows new building planners to combine the two. And I get that parents are a source of custom and good for business, but are you saying that disabled people aren’t ?

This is the attitude that is an issue. There are some adults who think a baby should always come first, especially their baby or child.
So if tying up the emergency cord and moving the nappy bin so wheelchair users can not use the toilet, tough shit.

It’s not unlawful for a parent to use a changing table because it’s in a disabled toilet. I’m sure as hell not going to advocate for anybody not using facilities for their intended purpose. You can shout all you want about the law - but it’s not on your side when you consider there is no law against parents using changing tables provided to them. How utterly ridiculous. I would never see a disabled person struggle in place of my own need but your perception that parents should never use facilities in place for exactly the purpose they do is astonishing. We don’t need to lobby - you lobby to get parents out of your space and allow spaces to be vacant.

Nobody is saying they should take precedence. That is an entirely different matter.

What concerns me is that the OP has had every opportunity to come back and say, “Actually, having read your responses and had a chance to reflect, I realise that this was a really shitty thread to start and I am sorry.”

OP: Nothing

For some people disability is absolutely a choice if that’s how you chose to perceive it. Not every disability is pot luck, some are going to be the result of health conditions arising from lifestyle choices. If that’s how you chose to look at it.

@WinterBird24 Is that how you perceive disability?

We don’t need to lobby - you lobby to get parents out of your space and allow spaces to be vacant.

with the added joy that they double as baby changing facilities. In the quest for inclusion we’ve replaced ‘disabled’ with ‘accessible’ and now it’s a free for all for those who really don’t need it.

When you say they don't really need it do you mean there's another place for baby change?