UK employers' attitude to sickness is Victorian & tired of office 'martyrs'

[Startingagainandagain]

Reflecting on this as we are in the flu season.

Why do so many people will go in the office when they are so obviously unwell and risk infecting everyone else?

Why do employers seem to think that if someone is off sick they are automatically fibbing?

I have had flu symptoms all week (awful muscle pains, headaches, sore throat, constant sneezing...). I have a long term health condition and have to be careful not to mix too many pain killers with my regular meds. So I had to stay home to recover and after 3 days of rest I still feel rotten. My employer seems to be pissed off that I dared taking som time off...

I have people in my team who 'perform' martyrdom on a constant basis when it comes to illness: someone who broke several bones insisting they were working from their hospital bed (which is impossible & unsafe considering how much pain meds they give you in this situation and how drowsy they make you...), another who also assured our manager they were working while sitting in A&E with their sick partner. We also have regular instances where someone comes in with covid or similar contagious disease and then causes the rest of the team to catch it and go off sick which is totally counterproductive...

Basically I am puzzled that employers seem to think that people should never get sick and that so many employees go along with the charade.

Would it not be more sensible and healthier to have a more pragmatic view to illness at work?

And don't get me started on disability: if like me you have a long term health condition/disabilty your card is marked as soon as you declare it on end up needed time off when you have a flare up.

Why is the UK workplace like this?

Am I being unreasonable to think there is a better way to deal with illness and disability at work?

'@HelmholtzWatson · Today 05:22

People need to be more resilient. A runny nose and a sore throat are not reason enough to stay off work, and the more your immune system is exposed to different pathogens, the better it becomes at dealing with them.'

Nobody is talking about staying off work just because of a runny nose...

I don’t recognise the scenario in the OP at all.

If people are sick at my work they take time off. There is no melodramatic working from hospital beds etc. No one expects or wants an ill person to work.

More broadly I do think that home working has blurred lines slightly so you might WFH with a cold whereas previously you’d be in bed.

Thanks everyone for all the feedback.

• It makes sense that people who don't have reasonable sickness pay sometimes feel like they have no choice. So sad that employers don't value the wellbeing of their staff...

• I will never accept that it is OK for someone to work (or perform martyrdom by pretending to be working) from their hospital bed. First of all I don't believe that you can mentally and physically do any decent work that way. I have had several surgeries and many stay in A&E and hospital wards, certainly isn't an environment where you can do any kind of detailed work, not to mention that if you have broken bones/recovering from surgery you are pumped with heavy painkillers that make you sleep. That's also what your body needs to recover (rest and sleep) so an employer/manager who allows an employee to work in this situation is failing in their duty of care and also put the company at risk of the employee making some serious mistakes. It also gives a stick for the manager to beat people with: 'If X can work from hospital with a broken back/hip/leg, you should not be off sick for a mere flu...'.

I think my point was as well that if government wants to see more disabled people/people with long term conditions be employed and stay in employment, they need to look at addressing barriers like employers 'punishing' people for needing some time of sick due to these conditions and maybe incentivise employers to take people in to mitigate the additional costs. No matter how well you manage your condition, for me it is definitely a case that although I do all I can with medication, exercise and healthy eating I still am more likely to need sick leave now and then. My condition is not going away...

Also I think it is counterproductive when employer try to make staff guilty for being sick. My current workplace has the highest staff turnover I have ever seen, high level of sickness (as people burn out) and currently employment tribunal claims for disability discrimination...so there is a wisdom in treating your staff correctly if you want the long term benefits of a happy, productive workforce.

Many people go to work when they're sick not because they're martyrs, but because their company doesn't provide occupational sick pay (or, if they do, insist you pass a 3-6month probation period before you're entitled to sick pay).

Not everyone is eligible for statutory sick pay, as they're self employed (because more and more small employers are only offering 'freelance' positions, to get out if their employer responsibilities) or don't earn at least £123 per week. If you are eligible for SSP, it doesn't cover the first 3 days of sick leave and, as it's only £116 per week, wouldn't cover mortgage and bill payments.

Companies have a poor attitude to sickness because the State allows them to. If we collectively cared, we would improve legislation designed to protect workers.

www.eurodev.com/blog/sick-leaves-in-europe-2022

@Startingagainandagain I don't disagree but underpinning the employment relationship is the contract of employment whereby the employer pays the employee x for the provision of y services.

If the employee, on a regular basis and despite reasonable adjustments that can be operationally supported, is regularly not at work they are not rendering their obligations under the contract of employment.

In relation to your comments about working from a hospital bed, it depends. When I was in a hospital bed three days after breaking a limb (that was reduced and potted in A&E), I was not in acute pain and 30/500 co-codamol sufficed. I arrived at 8.30 and wasn't taken for surgery until 3.30pm. I was more than capable of working until then. Not the following day from home when I was recovering from the GA and stronger pain relief that was given during/post surgery.

I was not being a martyr, I was keeping on top of significant strategic issues and it passed the time during what was a very boring period.

One company I worked for , if you got a written warning you didn't get your bonus or pay rise for a year ( above the minimum wage ) so people who were genuinely sick were punished if they took too much time off .

People catch viruses everywhere not just work. If sick people shouldn't go to work with a virus, they also shouldn't go to pick up kids from school, or to the supermarket, or parties or...

The reality is that viruses are part of life. Not pleasant but not world stopping.

That's not for everyone though is it?
My immune system is fucked and I can't improve it
Sore throat could be a bit of a tickle or tonsillitis. I can't work with tonsillitis because of my job, where someone else might be able to if they don't need to speak and don't have a raging temperature

I'm sure that's a great consolation to any immunocompromised people the 'resilient' worker ends up infecting.

The last time I had a runny nose and a sore throat I thought it was just a cold. It turned out to be Covid. I wfh so admittedly this is a bit easier for me, I felt well enough to work so I did, but should I have been 'resilient' and gone to work in that scenario had I been office-based?

I agree op it doesn't help anyone.
We've had people coughing and sneezing all over the office all week and I'm now sick also.
I've been bed bound, struggling to get to the loo. Everyone is an adult and I'd say reasonably trust worthy but unfortunately the managers are very immature and always come from a position that someone is lying which puts pressure on people to go jn.
Now they will be left extremely short staffed next week due to illness

I think it's awful personally.

Why do so many people will go in the office when they are so obviously unwell and risk infecting everyone else?

SSP. I (and I bet) many others cannot afford to stay a few days in bed even though it would be the most sensible option. If you have bills to pay and no savings, what do you suggest? I think it's shameful that in this day and age, so many people who work incredibly hard cannot afford sick leave.

In the country I live in, you can get up to 6 weeks off work on full pay, up to a further 18 months on approx. 75% pay. So yes, the UK seems "Victorian" in comparison.

I have gone to work with cold symptoms before as felt capable to work but wouldn’t dream of dragging myself into work if I was unwell with something I could pass onto my colleagues or others I encounter through work. However we have had people in the team that do blatantly take the piss.

But who pays?? That's always going to be the question. The guy who is sick? The other team members? The business. The customers? The tax payer??? Me? You?
We are already at the point where we have a significant percentage of the workforce on long term or short term sick. People start to get fed up so "take" the "sick days" they are "owed" - whether sick or not. And GPs never refuse to sign a sick note - they can't...
You're right OP the polices need a rethink but it's not as black and white as "stay off if you don't feel well."

(edited to say - I am NOT advocating the end of sick pay or ill people struggling in for fear of not being able to pay the bills. I am saying that it is always a question of who pays)

More to the point, where are you working? Because I think many people would like to join you there. Sadly, this is not at all the experience of the vast majority of workers in the UK, who are generally all treated as potential skivers and malingerers. Not by all businesses, but certainly by many, as seen on this thread.

Our school became part of an academy trust and we now have the same policy as described by many here as opposed to the common sense approach previously taken by the head - it's awful having to sort work for a supply teacher / TA whilst you are feeling so ill you've rung in to say that, and it's awful trying to pick up the pieces on your return. So a teacher who is calling in sick is a teacher who really, genuinely cannot function and needs to be at home. We all regularly teach through colds, viruses, with thumping headaches, with no voice ...it is what it is. We've generally caught it from the kids and/or will give it to them so it will circulate through them and their families. (This was the reason schools were closed during Covid - one ill person in class spreads to potentially hundreds of others by the time you factor in all the kids' families and their workplaces.)

So what solution do you propose?

The company I'm with now gives me 6 months full sick pay, from day one, no waiting 3 days. The previous company made you work there for several years and was 10 weeks full pay, if after 10 weeks no sign of returning, you were let go.
In the UK. It really depends who you work for.

THIS, thank you

We don’t get paid if we are off sick at work.

DH does get paid but has to go through a long disciplinary process on return, even if it’s 48 hours or less for something like D&V.

for the above, unless I am bedridden, I go to work. So do most others. At this time of year we all get colds. We all got Covid.

At DHs work, no one takes 48 hours or less off. They take a good 4/5 days or over a week if signed by a gp off to make sure they are fit for work and are rested, especially as they will get a disciplinary anyway.

Your dh's workplace sounds similar to mine. I will take annual leave if it is just a day or so. However more than that and you may as well take the week off, the hassle is the same.

Funnily enough I started a similar thread a few years ago and got jumped on. Has COVID changed things?

YANBU, I'm patient facing in the NHS and if we hit 3 absences a year we get put on an action plan. It leads to ill staff coming in and no doubt spreading to the rest of the staff and very ill patients, but if they don't they risk disciplinary/loss of promotion opportunities/loss of job.

Added to that I had a manager at work complain about 'people' (me) taking time off sick far too easily. I was pregnant at the time and having dizzy spells because of low blood pressure. I also have to walk to work and was worried about fainting on the way in and doing myself or my baby a mischief. I dragged myself to work on the days I had horrible morning sickness, but the dizzy spells were something else. I phoned the MDAU and they told me to stay at home (or go home if I was at work.)

So you have never had flu or vomiting and diarrhoea which have lasted longer than 3 days. You are very lucky. But if these strike you need longer than 3 days.

Your statement sums up the lack of empathy in so many work places.

None of us can take our health for granted and realise ill health can strike at any time. Be grateful for your health and have empathy for those who are not so fortunate.

@PerditaLaChien I had all my COVID vaccines, still got it, and was off for a week (just before I had a week's holiday, great timing! 🤦🏻‍♀️) I've never felt so ill. I'd consider myself reasonably healthy. Pretty sure it fucked with my immune system and my strength though.