People who think weight loss injections are cheating

[AuntieDote]

I've seen this viewpoint over multiple threads recently, and I'm just really curious to understand it a bit more because it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

What do you think people using the injections are cheating at?

As in - what's the competition and who are they gaining an unfair advantage over? What do you think the rules of being allowed to lose weight are/ should be?

Is it more important to you that overweight people/ those struggling with obesity lose the weight, become healthier, reduce the burden on the NHS, stop taking up more than their allocated amount of space in the world, or just stop doing whatever it is that upsets people so much about the existence of fat people -- or is it more important that they struggle and suffer whilst doing so?

Or would you secretly prefer them to remain fat so you can feel superior?

Is it that you feel you've worked really hard to either lose weight, keep it off or never put it on in the first place, so nobody else should be allowed to achieve this without the same amount of struggle?

What do you think the weight loss injections actually do, and do you not recognise that those on them are also doing all the usual things people who are trying to lose weight e.g. modify their eating, exercise etc? Does it not count that they're doing these things because it's made easier in some ways by the drug?

What types of weight loss support or tools are not 'cheating'? e.g. I used hypnosis once and it worked for a bit, to the point that I felt pretty much the same way I do with the injections i.e. reduction in food noise and compulsion to snack etc. It didn't last anything like as long, but it worked for a time - was that cheating?

Would it still be cheating if they weren't as effective as they are?

FWIW, I really couldn't care less if people think I'm cheating - who cares? Who does it impact only me and my bank balance? If someone said here, press this button and you'll be a healthy BMI overnight and stay there forever I'd press it with both hands and not give a shit about how anyone felt about it.

But it's just the logic of it that baffles me - I've never seen it as a competition and have never felt like getting to or being a healthy weight only counts if it's done in a certain way - I suppose I'm not much interested in what size anyone else is or what they do to get that way, so I can't imagine for a second ever thinking another person was 'cheating' - only ever being happy for them if they're happy and hopefully healthy too.

Are you addicted to UPFs?
If not, how would you know they are not the same.

It's the same dopamine based reward system that underpins all such addictions.

People with non food addictions taking MJ have reported they can now control such addictions, examples being alcohol and pathological gambling.

Imo they are the same.

@ThatCoralShark, your posts are patronising, aggressive and rude.

That's not the best way to rally the 'utterly ignorant' to your wisdom. I expect it will only do the exact opposite.

Ultimately, all we know for sure is that the drug works in triggering weight loss. No one denies that. Everything else is supposition based on the current limited research. 'Research', as it quoted doesn't mean much in itself. Anyone can do research. Large numbers doesn't always mean better research either. Time will tell.

I understand you don’t like my message, so put up a reasoned argument. Not just hurl some abuse. Because that’s what’s rude, aggressive and patronising.

But surely you understand as an addict that everyone's experiences are not the same.

Because I can have a single glass of wine and stop it doesn't mean I can't understand an addict is unable to stop after just one.

I can't stop after one chocolate. I sit there an think about it constantly until I have eaten the entire bar and if I just bought a small one I need to go and get another. When I have cut out or reduced upf I get headaches, I feel sick, I shake, I Flip flop between crying and wanting to scream. I am irritable I know that upf is detrimental to my health I am aware of the damage it is doing to my body but I can't just stop. I would hide it and try to not seem like I didn't eat it.

I can see that my addiction doesn't match yours but I would never say alcohism isn't real because I stop at 1 drink.

Scientifically as highlighted above the understanding is now that these are as addictive in SOME individuals. In the same way not everyone who has alcohol or even cocaine or heroin will necessarily become an addict, not everyone who eats upf will become addicted to the. It doesn't mean they are not addictive.

Cheating? Good grief that is a crazy way to think. People being prescribed this drug under NHS are not well at all- multiple health issues, all serious. Eating is such a complex issue and we are battling 300,000 yrs of evolutionary pressure as homo sapiens , ( prob way more than that if we go back to our hominid ancestry of 3,000,000 years) plus global mass marketing - remember cigarette ads? Junk food is the same. We are witnessing unstoppable rise of ultra processed foods- governments must legislate for the harm this is doing. A perfect storm creating a crisis.
so no not cheating!
But as for the fools in normal range or mildly overweight, buying it online to shed a few pounds? That’s a different story.

I appreciate what youre saying and the education you are giving me.
im not sure how the injection works in changing the addiction though?
I assume its not like methadone where its a controlled reduction.
I can appreciate that a food issues, binge eating disorder etc is a huge mental battle. and its great that theres a medical option to help that which I think is really completely different to it being a weight loss injection.

drug/alcohol addiction Is a completely different story and no not everyones experiences are the same.
please, out of respect, do not compare drug addiction to something if you have not experienced it

how do I know they're not the same?
really?

please, out of respect, do not compare drug addiction to something if you have not experienced it.

Is this straight? It’s the first time I’ve have heard something like this. You genuinely scream or cry if you can’t get UPF’s?

I understand you don’t like my message, so put up a reasoned argument. Not just hurl some abuse. Because that’s what’s rude, aggressive and patronising
I am not the one accusing anyone of being utterly ignorant.

Yeah the idea of comparing addiction to upf as the same as drugs and alcohol is ridiculous and goes to show how many on this thread are doing their best to claim that being fat is more than just overconsumption because of cravings, not because of addiction!

God a lot of you are so invested in this thread, makes me think there's a lot of slim women totally resentful of this drug otherwise you wouldn't keep responding with facts and figures 🤔 if I was thin I wouldn't even be bothered in reading these posts, I'd be off enjoying my best life 😊

I thought that, but someone is posting they scream, shake, cry, feel sick. if they can’t get to eat upf’s. I have never heard of something that extreme. I can’t imagine someone screaming and shaking as they want more wotsits or bacon. But for that poster at least, that seems to be what they are posting.

Same hear, it’s because it’s complete bollocks, nobody shakes and cries or has to come off upf like a rehab scene from nurse Jackie! 😂

It tapers out the dopamine in the reward centres of the brain. It is that dopamine hit that causes the addiction the faster and higher the dopamine hit the more addictive.

So heroin for example is very very efficient at increasing dopamine in this region. Alcohol does as well but not as effectively as heroin hence why heroin is more addictive then alcohol.

So the glp 1 stops the high association with eating of upf but also stops the low when it's not there. It is currently being researched as a treatment in other alcohol and drug use disorders as another treatment avenue and is showing promising results.

Is this an anxiety you feel every time your Doctor prescribes a drug for you?

I've seen something similar when people who were previously problem drinkers achieve sobriety through any other method than Alcoholics Anonymous. You can drink as much as you want, whenever you want; it's just that you no longer want to. And you haven't wanted to for seven, eight years. But it's not fair! It's cheating!

Not screaming I want more food but incredibly incredibly irritable where the slightest irritation can push me over the edge. So feeling like i want to scream at the kettle and throw it in the bin because the button won't work. A completly irrational and out of proportion response to a small stressor.

I never understood how thin people weren't absolutely miserable constantly as when I tried calorie restriction with loads kf protein and doing it right with no upf I was like this. I couldn't put my kids yo bed without feeling close to an outburst and I didn't think that was fair on them.

The wli have fixed this

For those saying it's ridiculous well here's a link to a recent review highlighting the recent literature on it where it is recognised as highly addictive. Saying its bollocks isn't really arguing with the literature. Please show me the scientific papers saying it's bollocks.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11150183/#:~:text=Chronically%20high%20levels%20of%20UPF,to%20obesity%20risk%20%5B44%5D.

Did you know addiction only became recognised as a disease in the 80s and the social stigma surrounding it is still incredibly prevalent. In the same way metal health disorders are stigmatised until very very recently.

A lack of understanding of a concept does not automatically equal bollocks.

"For instance, qualitative studies have revealed that both adults and youths describe experiencing physical (e.g., headaches, fatigue) and psychological (e.g., irritability, preoccupation with cravings) symptoms when trying to reduce UPFs that parallel features of nicotine withdrawal [60,61,62]."
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13679-024-00569-w#:~:text=For%20instance%2C%20qualitative%20studies%20have,60%2C61%2C62%5D.

Here's an expert from another paper specifically highlighting the withdrawal symptoms from upf. Exactly the symptoms I listed.

Tbh I’ve largely ignored news items on UPF because as a family they don’t feed into our story (we rarely eat them) and I had been a bit dismissive of headlines as being under the ‘Big Corporations’ conspiracy theory stuff that I am sceptical of.

I am, however, interested in the articles posted as I can see that at a societal level if 14-15% of adults and young people have a clinically observable addictive reaction to food that is feeding into ill health and obesity, then it absolutely needs recognising and addressing. WLI are one tool in the arsenal of approaches to managing obesity at a societal level, but clearly legislating around the quality of foods, taxing high sugar/carb/UPF/low nutrient foods to ensure that they are not the go-to foods of families who have limited funds and may be less educated on these issues has to be another such tool? As is improved education and access to leisure centres/sports and many other measures no government of the last 30 years has managed to put into place.

I think these threads have made it clear there are complex and multi-factored reasons for why both individuals and segments of society struggle with obesity. And a myriad of biological functions underlying natural weight maintenance. If we want to fix the NHS, reduce taxes, have a healthier and economically productive population, then we need to come at this from all angles.

I get all this stuff about dopamine hit and it’s interesting to hear about the affects of mounjaro on dopamine, etc,

but I’d just like to say that my problem has been hunger. I have been over- eating because I’ve been intensely hungry, and mounjaro has radically reduced that hunger, (which I don’t think is related to its affects on dopamine reward).

Absolutely and that is what this drug is predominatly prescribed to do. Also what its clinically prescribed for.

But obesity is multifactorial disease. The rate of upf addiction is about 29% in obesity vs half that in the general population. So not the only factor or main factor by any means but most likely a contributing factor which is why its worth exploring.

Totally agree with this as main mechanism and f action.
For me I was also STARVING and had to eat, and lots of it! Also happening many times I day- I was often RAVENOUS!

But even if I was not hungry, just after eating a meal, there was a compulsion to finish the chocs, the pringles, my kids leftovers

This is where I see the reward system having an impact, as that compulsion to put that food in my mouth is just gone

Mechanism of action

( Typo)