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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think vice principal had unrealistic expectations?

131 replies

Supermummy88 · 10/12/2024 23:53

Good evening all,

I’m a geography teacher and took on a new role as head of department last year in November at a fairly new school…this august were their first set of GCSE results. When I started there was a lack of resources, very poorly planned schemes of work and no GCSE lessons on their system. I had a lot of my own resources however I didn’t have any for the exam board that the school do for geography. I have worked extremely hard for the past year to get this department up and running. The other geography teacher is unqualified and new to this country and therefore I couldn’t really rely on him much. I have put in a lot of effort and I don’t think I can put in much more. I am doing intervention classes, lots of exam questions, creating lots of new GCSE content etc. I had a meeting with the VP and AH yesterday and they said that the year 11 mock grades were not good enough in comparison to the RE and history results and that I need to do something as a matter of urgency to ensure that the students reach their targets. They then started going on about how good the RE teacher is and how her grades are amazing. They have come up with a whole list of things I need to do. I just don’t have the time or energy as I have primary aged children on my own. AIBU to just tell them to find someone else for this role? I just can’t deal with the constant scrutiny!!!

OP posts:
Mumandthemermaids · 16/12/2024 07:23

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 06:46

Ah, I see the mistake here, and it is common from teachers. Work hours do not include breaks (e.g. lunch breaks, tea breaks), so when I say I work 9-5, that counts as 7.5 hours, not 8, to account for the 30 mins of the day when I am nipping to the loo, grabbing a snack, etc.

I assume you grab a snack and nip to the loo during your days - you may even grab a 20 min lunch break and take a tea break as well. This time isn't included in your work hours, so you likely work less than 40 hours a week (prob closer to 35), which is entirely reasonable and comparable to most other jobs.

This whole "I work 50 hours a week" from teachers, when they are including all breaks (and sometimes even their commute 😂) is ridiculous - no one else does that. I have heard a teacher on here say "I leave the house at 7am and get home at 6pm, therefore I work 11 hours a day, or 55 hours a week"...where that just describes a normal 37-40 hours a week of actual work, like the rest of us.

If I’m lucky, I get 15-30 mins at lunchtime. Break time, I’m either on play ground duty, first aid duty or setting up or clearing away between lessons. Tea or toilet breaks don’t exist because you can’t leave the children alone in the classroom to do this. It’s literally two minutes to run up the corridor for a wee before the bell goes at break or lunch. That 40 hours is accurate when taking into account all the work at home. I also am classed as part time on a 26 hour contract because I work 4 days per week, not the full 5.

EmoIsntDead · 16/12/2024 07:26

SaagAloopa · 15/12/2024 08:28

I just don’t have the time or energy as I have primary aged children on my own. but you're doing this during your work hours right? Or are they expecting you to put work in after hours??

⭐️laughs in teacher⭐️

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 07:31

If I’m lucky, I get 15-30 mins at lunchtime. Break time, I’m either on play ground duty, first aid duty or setting up or clearing away between lessons. Tea or toilet breaks don’t exist because you can’t leave the children alone in the classroom to do this. It’s literally two minutes to run up the corridor for a wee before the bell goes at break or lunch. That 40 hours is accurate when taking into account all the work at home. I also am classed as part time on a 26 hour contract because I work 4 days per week, not the full 5.

Yes, this is pretty normal in most jobs. I am certain that you grab a bite to eat every day, perhaps grab a cup of tea or two and also have a few loo breaks. So let's say 30 mins + within the day. So you wouldn't count that in your working hours.

Most of us in professional roles work as you describe above, grabbing quick bites/cups of tea and running to the loo.

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 07:34

And almost everyone I know in a professional role works in the evenings, too (an hour or two). It's genuinely entirely the norm.

Notgoodatpoetrybutgreatatlit · 16/12/2024 07:50

@Picture Place
It's poor leadership because OP is doing all the work for an entire department and SLTs sole contribution is to demand more work and to leave the OP in despair. Good leaders would know what the structural issues are and offer support not this brutal takedown.
But either way I would advise looking for another job as this one isn't working for OP.

jeanne16 · 16/12/2024 07:59

Sorry to say this but it is quite normal to compare results across humanities subjects. If the Geography results are lower, it is the slt role to try to find out why.

You need to push back if you can. Does Geography have lower ability pupils than History and RS? That is entirely possible and you should be able to show this looking at the school data. Also you need to ensure the other Geography teacher steps up. That is your role as hod, but should also relieve your workload.

cakeorwine · 16/12/2024 08:01

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 07:31

If I’m lucky, I get 15-30 mins at lunchtime. Break time, I’m either on play ground duty, first aid duty or setting up or clearing away between lessons. Tea or toilet breaks don’t exist because you can’t leave the children alone in the classroom to do this. It’s literally two minutes to run up the corridor for a wee before the bell goes at break or lunch. That 40 hours is accurate when taking into account all the work at home. I also am classed as part time on a 26 hour contract because I work 4 days per week, not the full 5.

Yes, this is pretty normal in most jobs. I am certain that you grab a bite to eat every day, perhaps grab a cup of tea or two and also have a few loo breaks. So let's say 30 mins + within the day. So you wouldn't count that in your working hours.

Most of us in professional roles work as you describe above, grabbing quick bites/cups of tea and running to the loo.

And you work in the evenings, work late in the evenings and work at the weekends as well?

cakeorwine · 16/12/2024 08:02

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 07:34

And almost everyone I know in a professional role works in the evenings, too (an hour or two). It's genuinely entirely the norm.

Is it?

A whole hour in the evening? Well get you. And 5 - 8 hours at the weekend too?

When do you think papers get marked, lessons get planned, resources get prepared, the whole teacher admin, planning, preparation and assessment gets done?

cakeorwine · 16/12/2024 08:05

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 07:34

And almost everyone I know in a professional role works in the evenings, too (an hour or two). It's genuinely entirely the norm.

Oh - and fuck that. I have a professional role but left teaching to get my work life balance back.

I get my evenings and weekends back.

ThePure · 16/12/2024 08:14

What do you think is the reason that the RE and history results are better in the same school? Are they different cohorts? Do the lower ability kids choose geography?

What were the results last year before you came? Is that not the fairer comparison?

If you are doing your best and can't do any more then what realistically can they do? If they don't appreciate your efforts there are presumably many other jobs.

Frowningprovidence · 16/12/2024 08:23

Is there a geography lead at another school you can reach out to.

Can you use your data better to focus on particular students

can you rearrange teaching so, if you are stronger than your other teacher, the exam pupils are all getting some time with you?

yes it sounds a lot to turn around in one year but maybe next year will be easier as you have put the ground work in?

I think id be wanting to go elswhere too, if they weren't supportive.

cakeorwine · 16/12/2024 08:27

Frowningprovidence · 16/12/2024 08:23

Is there a geography lead at another school you can reach out to.

Can you use your data better to focus on particular students

can you rearrange teaching so, if you are stronger than your other teacher, the exam pupils are all getting some time with you?

yes it sounds a lot to turn around in one year but maybe next year will be easier as you have put the ground work in?

I think id be wanting to go elswhere too, if they weren't supportive.

Basing performance on one set of results is no way to make professional judgements....

Except in education apparently

Frowningprovidence · 16/12/2024 08:37

cakeorwine · 16/12/2024 08:27

Basing performance on one set of results is no way to make professional judgements....

Except in education apparently

I was sort of hoping she could show a two or three year journey and just see this as the start.

But if slt think she can turn around by the end of this year it's aworry for her.

noblegiraffe · 16/12/2024 08:46

I’m loving the idea of a teacher’s day including a few loo breaks.

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 08:58

A whole hour in the evening? Well get you. And 5 - 8 hours at the weekend too?

I mean, I can promise you most professional people work as many hours as teachers, yes.

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 09:00

noblegiraffe · 16/12/2024 08:46

I’m loving the idea of a teacher’s day including a few loo breaks.

What do you mean? Teachers are saying that their workday is 8am-5.30pm, yes, there would definitely be more than one loo break in that time.

Sharptonguedwoman · 16/12/2024 09:07

SaagAloopa · 15/12/2024 08:28

I just don’t have the time or energy as I have primary aged children on my own. but you're doing this during your work hours right? Or are they expecting you to put work in after hours??

All teachers work hours over the nominated work hours. Not a nine to five job. This teacher seems to have worked miracles and somehow needs to get the management to understand that. I salute her and wish her good luck going forwards.
It might be worthwhile her talking to her union and her line manager about exactly what the situation was when she arrived and to calmly list exactly what she has done to rectify it. If they are not prepared to listen then yes, a job hunt.
School management or leadership teams can be very divorced from reality.

Moglet4 · 16/12/2024 09:10

SaagAloopa · 15/12/2024 08:28

I just don’t have the time or energy as I have primary aged children on my own. but you're doing this during your work hours right? Or are they expecting you to put work in after hours??

No British teacher ever just works in work hours- working to 10pm most nights is very normal

Moglet4 · 16/12/2024 09:14

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 07:34

And almost everyone I know in a professional role works in the evenings, too (an hour or two). It's genuinely entirely the norm.

Most teachers would kill to do only an hour or two a night, especially in essay subjects

EnidSpyton · 16/12/2024 09:20

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 09:00

What do you mean? Teachers are saying that their workday is 8am-5.30pm, yes, there would definitely be more than one loo break in that time.

I suggest you try working for a week as a teacher before commenting on the pattern of our days and our workload.

My school has 80 minute lessons. My classroom has no staff toilets nearby. I’m not allowed to leave the children unattended. So on mornings when I teach back to back - and there’s only 5 minutes between lessons - I can go from 8.30 until lunch without having had the opportunity to go to the toilet, especially as break time is usually a mad dash to the photocopier or a chat with a student or colleague who needs help with something. Not having time to go to the toilet is actually a major problem for female teachers in particular. Female teachers have a higher incidence of urine infections than other professions due to fact that we’re often unable to go to the toilet for long periods of time. Many female teachers will also be able to share horrible experiences of leaking during periods due to not being able to go to the toilet to change sanitary products in time. It’s shit. But it’s our reality.

We can’t go to the toilet when we want or eat and drink when we want. We have very little autonomy over our schedules during the working day. We are literally timetabled to be in certain spaces at certain times and we are responsible for the safety of 30+ children while there. We have to put our own needs last.

I don’t think that teachers work harder or longer than all other professions - having worked outside of teaching for periods of time in other jobs, I am aware of the pressures a variety of jobs take on people and I know we’re not the only ones working in the evenings and weekends unpaid. However, the difference with teaching is the exhaustion of being ‘on’ all day and the inability to ever be able to switch off. That’s what makes it so hard. We have no down time during the day. We’re on constant alert. We are talking and thinking and doing non stop. The demands of teaching are physically and emotionally exhausting in a way an office job’s demands simply aren’t. And having to finish a day like that and go home and spend 3 hours marking - which again is a much more intellectually demanding and tiring task than putting together some slides for a presentation or responding to emails - is really hard work.

Cosyblankets · 16/12/2024 09:23

When you took on the role did you have a meeting with the VP or anyone and express concern about expected grades?
Did you outline what you would need to pull the grades up? This is what should have happened and it should have been documented so that you could refer back to it now. The mock exam results should not have been a surprise to anyone. If the students have not completed the syllabus they can't be expected to get the grades.
I do think they're being unrealistic but unless you've had a conversation about how you are to achieve the expected results before now then I also feel that's is not just about the work you're putting in, it's about asking for realistic support at the right time, which was when you took on the role.
I say this as a teacher who has escaped the system. The job is no longer about teaching and enthusiasm for a subject, it's about constant scrutiny about what you have done along the way. It's far more about what you can prove you've done rather than what the children actually understand. I started teaching in the early 90s and the job has changed so much. I'd had enough. So I left.

Supermummy88 · 16/12/2024 10:34

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 06:51

OP, did you expect SLT to shrug their shoulders and say, "oh well, these kids will not achieve what they should, hard luck on them"? It is their duty to ensure that doesn't happen, and you are accountable for that.

You really should have asked for support earlier, but now that you are in this situation, you are responsible for fixing it. Yes, you will need to work harder over the coming months make sure they don't under-achieve. Who on earth else did you think would be accountable for it? Sometimes we have to work harder after we have underperformed.

I have worked exceptionally hard that I have not started to experience symptoms of burnout. However, they are not taking into consideration that they have had 6 different geography teachers in the last 5 years and they are also a school that have very very high staff turnover due to the type of STL there is.

OP posts:
monkeysox · 16/12/2024 10:37

SaagAloopa · 15/12/2024 08:28

I just don’t have the time or energy as I have primary aged children on my own. but you're doing this during your work hours right? Or are they expecting you to put work in after hours??

Are you joking. Teaching is all hours. Of course op is working evenings and weekends.

GretchenWienersHair · 16/12/2024 10:43

PicturePlace · 16/12/2024 09:00

What do you mean? Teachers are saying that their workday is 8am-5.30pm, yes, there would definitely be more than one loo break in that time.

lol.

Cosyblankets · 16/12/2024 11:28

Supermummy88 · 16/12/2024 10:34

I have worked exceptionally hard that I have not started to experience symptoms of burnout. However, they are not taking into consideration that they have had 6 different geography teachers in the last 5 years and they are also a school that have very very high staff turnover due to the type of STL there is.

When you took the role in was the time to address that issue. That was your time to say if you want me to do X then this is what I need.
Did you do this?

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