To think higher education isn’t a right for everyone?

[UniqueOlivePombear]

Not everyone has the aptitude for university - shouldn’t vocational training be encouraged instead of pushing for degrees?

It's important that both are promoted equally.

University isn't for everyone but neither is vocational education. people should be supported to make choices that suit them as an individual.

I wondered how long it would before the term 'mickey mouse degree' appeared.

I think this might be a record.

Can you define what you consider to be a Mickey Mouse degree

The problem is that it isn't a level playing field even for those who have the academic potential. I believe every young person should have the right to be able to consider if higher education is right for them - but many factors other than academic ability affect this.

Everyone should have the opportunity to access higher education, if they are suitable qualified (e.g. academically or through experience or whatever) to be accepted onto a given course.

The issue is that for many people that opportunity simply isn't there.

I'm fairly sure plenty of young people are now opting out of going to university in preference of apprenticeship routes.

Why do you think otherwise?

I'm fairly sure plenty of young people are now opting out of going to university in preference of apprenticeship routes.
Why do you think otherwise?

Not really. Degree level apprenticeships are not widely available and they are highly competitive.
Also, not all schools are great at promoting vocational options. Higher education is still often promoted as the preferred option.

I used to work at a university that had quite low entry criteria (basically.took.anyone as long as they paid).

It was very difficult because although there were some obviously very bright and capable students, and a few more middle of the road students, a large number of each cohort produced very poor work. Terrible spelling and grammar, getting the wrong end of the stick completely in assignments, and simply just not understanding the material.

We had to kind of artificially inflate the grades. The uni said we weren't doing this, just ensuring the grade boundaries were inclusive, but it was clear to me that in a better university half the papers I received wouldn't receive pass marks.

I can't see the point of these students somehow 'passing' their degree (and quite a few really poor students came out with 2:2s which they really didn't deserve IMO - at Oxbridge they'd have failed easily not been awarded a 2.2) and entering the work place completely incapable of writing a sentence. Even some of my low 2.1 students really weren't very academically skilled and probably should only have been awarded 3rds.

My son isn't sure if he wants to go to uni. He's capable but his skills and interests lie outside academics. I think that's fine! It's pointless sending everyone to university.

No need for a degree in psychology or media or maths if you are going to work in a job that doesn't require it.

I wasn't talking about degree level apprenticeships.

University isn't for everyone.

I wasn't talking about degree level apprenticeships.
What did you mean when you said people are opting for apprenticeship routes instead of university then?

University isn't for everyone.

No it isn't. I'm not suggesting it is.

Everyone had the same opportunity at school. Work hard at school, and/or work hard in an apprenticeship.

F*ck around, and you'll find out later in life when you're scraping by.

As long as you would be happy for your child to undertake vocational training rather than going to University.

It's not that simple.
It's well documented that educational opportunities and achievement are not equal across the whole of society.

The bank I work for has just halved the number of graduate training scheme places, in order to double the number of degree apprenticeships it offers. Clearly if you want to be a vet/doctor/dentist you need to go to uni. If you want to work in a bank however, I'd personally choose a degree apprenticeship. Fully funded degree (so no debt), starting salary of £35k and a guaranteed job at the end of it. The degree is completed in 2 years and you also have two years relevant work experience under your belt.

Don't get me wrong, I loved my time at uni, but that was pre-tuition fees, I could rent in a shared house for about £400 a month and I got about 20 hours face to face tuition time. My recommendation to DC will be to try for a degree apprenticeship if they don't want to be vets/doctors/dentists.

Even those with an aptitude for university should be thinking strategically about whether it is the right decision for them and if a vocational course has more to offer, presuming they have the aptitude for it.

Exactly what i said. People can do apprenticeships that are not degree level.

Edited this was meant for @SerenityNowSerenityNow

Exactly what i said. People can do apprenticeships that are not degree level.

Of course they can, but in a discussion about choosing between university and vocational education it's safe to assume we're talking about young people who already have a L3 qualification and are looking at the next step. Why would they choose a qualification that's not at degree level or equivalent? Most (not all) will be looking for a higher level qualification at this stage. Providing they are capable of course.

I think that a swing away from University towards apprenticeships has begun, certainly in our area. I noticed that there were far more going down this route from my DC's school this year than a few years ago, including some of the most academic kids. I think the cost of a University education now is making people think twice. The best degree apprenticeships are incredibly competitive though. I know young people who have had multiple offers from sought after University courses that haven't even got interviews for the degree apprenticeships they wanted. There certainly seems to be a demand for alternative routes but not currently enough places.

Oh for the love of god I have no idea why you are choosing to be so combative!

The OP asked if vocational training should be pushed as an alternative to university. I said that there are already plenty of YP choosing the vocational apprenticeship route. Which is factually correct so vocational training is pushed as an alternative to the university route and for some reason you are trying to argue with me over it it!

For what it's worth I have my first child at a very selective university ,UCL, but my daughter has different skills and interests. She is doing GCSEs this summer but will be looking at vocational options which may more may not be degree level depending on a number of (unknown to us yet) factors.

So if you want to continue arguing that YP don't have options that don't involve University then go for your life. I just won't be bothering to respond any further.

This is very true in our area too.

Quite a few boys especially with decent mid range A levels Think B's and C's choosing not to go down the traditional university route.

I'm not sure people are all talking about the same thing when they say higher education.

I'm going to say that I think people should be encouraged to undertake education at a level 4 to 6, post 18 l, whether that vocational training and qualifications or a degree and the government should support employers wanting to provide these opportunities in some way. I dont quite understand the levy.

I also think people should have a lifelong 'right' to be supported to get maths and english grade 4 equivalents, funded. And I think we could put far more effort into further education. (Level 3, a level equivalents) giving much more support/funding to apprentiships and vocational training at this level - again life long. With easy bridges to further study if wanted.

I dont feel we need a cap on educated workers. I do agree that university isn't the only way to achieve this. I dont think alternatives will be cheaper if done well.

Whikst we are here, i also think the education /training for people with sen who struggle with maths and english is very poor and could be improved.

I had few classmates who were pushed, somehow accepted in clearing with lower grades and they suffered. Not everyone is academic. Some people are practical. None of those who suffered through uni with me, repeating or pasaing with 2:2 do what they studied. It was jjst torture to have a diploma which gave them nothing.

There is no shame in vocational training. My electrician's bill made me tear up more than my immigration lawyer's one....

And yy to uni level apprenticeships. They could be amazing for many

Oh for the love of god I have no idea why you are choosing to be so combative!

I'm not intending to be combative. I apologise if that is the way I have come across.

The OP asked if vocational training should be pushed as an alternative to university. I said that there are already plenty of YP choosing the vocational apprenticeship route. Which is factually correct so vocational training is pushed as an alternative to the university route and for some reason you are trying to argue with me over it it!

I was simply explaining that degree apprenticeships (as an alternative to HE) are highly competitive and not available in huge numbers. Which is factually correct.

I also stated that some schools are poor in promoting both academic and vocational options equally - which is also factually correct.

For what it's worth I have my first child at a very selective university ,UCL, but my daughter has different skills and interests. She is doing GCSEs this summer but will be looking at vocational options which may more may not be degree level depending on a number of (unknown to us yet) factors.

Good for her, but i was referring to choices post L3 qualifications. She wouldn't be going for a degree level apprenticeship straight after her GCSEs.

So if you want to continue arguing that YP don't have options that don't involve University then go for your life. I just won't be bothering to respond any further.

I categorically have not said this.

And yy to uni level apprenticeships. They could be amazing for many

I agree wholeheartedly. It's a shame they are so difficult to set up!!
I'm in the process of trying to set up a degree apprenticeship and it is significantly harder to set up then any standard degree programme I've ever been involved in.
We also need to recruit very high numbers to make it financially viable to us as a university.

Medicine and law are vocational training. As are other subjects taught at uni

Yes absolutely but the problem is that for vocational training you need employers on board and one of the reasons Tony Blair chose to increase university admissions was that he could control that. Some UK VET is extremely good. Some is dire. There is also an issue of employers reducing funding for it. On every measure (spend, time) UK employer funded VET is falling. The FE colleges have been chronically underfunded for many years and recent boosts won't touch the sides of that neglect.

So, perhaps the question should be, how do we persuade employers to invest in their workforce and this country?