To wonder why some people are more popular than others?

[shouldprobablyturnalighton]

Especially those who don't seem to be particularly nice?!

There’s a child at my kids’ school who is incredibly popular. I’m there quite a bit for various reasons, and it’s astonishing how much attention this one child gets. Their name is constantly being called, for example if someone does something vaguely impressive, they want this kid to see it or if there’s a game going on, they want this kid to join. The school has noticed too and the parents called in at one point because the sheer level of attention was becoming too much.

We’ve known this kid for years. Back in nursery, their name was a regular feature on reports concerning my children (think hitting, arguments, that sort of thing). It was very much a love-hate dynamic as they and my DC often brought out the worst in each other but still sought each other’s company. This has calmed down a bit of late, but since we've hit school I now hear from
other parents that this child isn’t particularly kind. Stories like orchestrating games to leave others out, saying 'I hate you' or “If you do X mean thing to so-and-so, you can play with us.” This doesn't seem like completely off the wall behaviour for kids based on my memory of being one, but I always thought it would happen when they were bigger rather than reception/year 1. Showing my naïvity perhaps but it's not happening with the majority, haven't heard anything about the other 20+ children so does seem like the exception rather than the rule at this point.

I’m trying (often failing but still trying!) not to judge too harshly—they’re still very little, and so much can change. But it does make me wonder: why is it that people, even young children, often crave the approval of those who aren’t very kind? And what is it which makes some people SO much more popular than others?!

I think some people/kids have magnetic personalities, others are drawn to them. It could also be because they are attractive. This gives them power, and they can use it for good or bad.

Some people flock to the popular ones, some see through it and avoid them. I wasn’t clever enough to see it for what it was and as a child and was tormented by a popular girl. My daughter avoids the kids like that thank goodness. I don’t know if it’s because she is a lot more mature than I was at her age. Or because as soon as she had issues with the horrible kids at kindergarten I encouraged her to find other friends.

Someone can be kind, pleasant and thoughtful with lovely manners whilst being simultaneously boring, unintelligent with no sense of humour. Their good qualities will make them an excellent friend but they won't be popular.

Conversely someone bright, charismatic and entertaining will probably be very popular even if they are also too selfish/spiteful/manipulative to be a good friend.

I can think of many people I've known over the years who fit these criteria. One of my SILs is an excellent example. I always enjoy seeing her and spending time with her because she is great company. She has a huge circle of friends, works hard at mixing and bringing people together and is always the centre of attention in any group. However I wouldn't consider her a friend because I've seen behind the social facade occasionally so I don't trust her.

This isn't to suggest all popular people are unpleasant. I have wonderful friends (and in-laws) who combine great characters with general popularity. I also have some quite isolated, quirky friends who are the opposite of popular but they are dear to me.

My BF at primary was popular and could be a bit mean to me as well as others.I wanted to be around her because she was funny, felt exciting, made me laugh so much and was confident.She was sporty , could sing and dodnt care what others thought.I was very shy , creative and socially awkward and she made me feel less so by being in her company.When we went to secondary I was accepted into friend groups I would have been too shy to make if I wasn't her friend.

I'm going to try and articulate this as best I can,

From my own experiences throughout life I have seen popular people / children over the years

There seems to be 2 types of popular people. Some are very kind, outgoing, funny and people are just drawn to them

Where as the unkind popular people - their not popular in the right way. People want to stay on their good side to avoid being on their bad side.

My DS is friends with a not nice popular boy. Hes been horrid to DS in the past but then other days is very nice to him. DS finds it easier to be his friend than not 😭

Same with unkind adults, I've seen a lot where the adult is very two faced, yet people flock around them. I think it's because people dont want to be on the receiving end,

I actually think, in adulthood, most ‘popular’ people are pretty kind. A lot of the negativity about them comes from people outside their orbit who like to write them off as bitchy / mean because they don’t pay them attention. But they aren’t social workers who are obliged to make everyone feel good about themselves… they’re just people living their lives.

with children I think it comes down to charisma + confidence. Fundamentally children, like humans, are drawn to the power that charisma creates. It’s the work of parents / teachers to make sure that ‘power’ is channeled kindly and empathetically

If you place a rat in a cage with a button that gives them food when they press it, the rats will press it only when they are hungry. If it does nothing when they press it, they stop pressing it.

If it gives food only sometimes, they start frantically pressing the button over and over even when they are not hungry. The on-off nature of the result drives an addictive behaviour towards pushing it.

The same behaviour is seen in humans too - it's partly behind why gambling is so addictive - sometimes winning and sometimes losing is far more compelling than winning all the time or losing all the time.

Children want to be liked and love getting attention. A child like this who is sometimes nice and sometimes nasty can easily trigger the above behaviour - trying over and over again to see if you get the good reaction this time. It's also seen in children trying to get attention from parents ignoring them.

Charisma gives you a lot of power over others. I think children want to be where the interesting stuff is going on and that is around these type of children. They don’t necessarily like them, they just want to be in on the action. Children are like adults in that they don’t always want kind and nice, they also want excitement and drama.

I think it’s a status thing too, I think on some level most humans know on a deep level that they require acceptance into the group to survive. So when someone doesn’t like us it hits a panic button, especially if we believe that person has status because their liking or not liking us can affect our own status. I think it wears off a bit as they get older (or it should) because our world is a bit different to tribal communities but I think we are geared to look for social approval.

I don't know how this applies to small children, but I've noticed that many charismatic people are just good con men. And it's surprising how many people fall for the con and defend the conman to the end, even though it's obvious he's lying and taking advantage of them. That is, many people prefer fake nice people over genuinely nice people.

Thanks for the responses. So many make sense. Being in with the crowd hails back to survival times, outsiders from the tribe weren't going to do well in times of hardship, and the leaders were those who were strong in mind as well as body rather than kindness being king. In general it's better to be on the good side of the bully than the bad side. All very obvious when pointed out.

The charisma thing certainly I have fallen foul of many times, though I personally don't see it in this case. More like a sly, sneaky person who's very good at staying out of trouble but orchestrating situations so that others carry out the dirty work.

Blooming hate it though, this need for approval from someone who in my experience of the last 4 years is not worthy of it in the slightest. But as I said they're still very young, and there does seem to have been something of a separation in the last term, or at least we're not hearing the name as much as we used to. Trying to keep an open mind that things can and likely will change a lot as we continue through the school years. See how we go, and for now concentrate on encouraging the kids to consider what makes a good friend and what type of people they want to be and be around.

You cannot fake charisma.

DD1 has always been very popular, always invited everywhere by everyone. Ironic, because she's totally nonchalant about her popularity and isn't especially bothered about pleasing anyone....and hence why she is so popular because people tend to value what they can't quite get. You have to work hard to spike DD1's interest and her approval is hard won, she is self willed and audacious. Yet, she's fiercely loyal and generous to those she loves. She often reminds me of Beth from Yellowstone!

In contrast, DD2 has always been a people pleaser, over eager to fit in and be liked. She is very malleable and sensitive. Consequently, people don't value her attention or friendship as much because it's so freely given. DD2 is very kind, generous and has a strong moral compass but these lovely qualities aren't as strong a social currency as DD1's.

Charisma and perception I guess.

Some people/kids are blessed with charisma and don't always use it kindly. Once children sense that THIS is the child they need to stay on the right side of, it all goes from there.

IME this lasts through primary then they get into the itchy cliques at secondary. The really nice ones will be popular in good schools. Friends through fear is never a great idea as its not really respect but a lot of insecure people stuck together making each other feel bad.

So basically what everyone else has been saying!

I think there's learned charisma if that makes sense?

I think most people are fairly kind, regardless of their popularity or lack of it. I don't think it's a significant factor in contributing to popularity because it's pretty common.

They are not necessarily popular as in well liked. What they have is social power. A lot of things contribute to acquiring this. Typically having something aspirational about you - good looks, good at sport, have cool parties, and as adults, wealthy, influential. This enables them to attract a core group of 'elite' that others want to be part of. Then there is the ability gatekeep what others want, so membership of the charmed circle with the party invitations, the access to friendship groups and so on.

I agree. I’d go so far as to say it’s an ‘entry level’ friend requirement rather than a notable one!

I do get frustrated when people are quick to write off busy / socially engaged people as ‘unkind’ just because they don’t have space to focus on everyone!

Social dominance is a skill, whether we like it or not. It goes hand in hand with confidence, assertiveness, a willingness to be central and to lead. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with kindness, generosity, thoughtfulness, loyalty or any of the other qualities we consciously encourage.

A child who is socially dominant can be popular and hold a lot of social power without being especially liked by children or other parents.

Is it gatekeeping though? Or is it just an unwillingness to commit all their time and energy to helping less confident people ‘fit in’ - for sure it sucks not to feel like you’re part of a particular gang - but as long as they’re not being actively hostile I’m not sure criticism is really founded on anything…

My ds20 was always very popular and still is. I’m not sure what it is about him but he’s extremely likeable.
Anyway this is a true story…A mother once phoned me and told me she was sick to death of her kids talking about my ds. She said ‘It’s Charlie this and Charlie that and I’m fucking sick of it!’
I was absolutely gobsmacked 😶

Sad to say I don’t think people particularly value being kind (certainly not as children). As pp said I think it has more to do with how you interact with others - coming across as friendly, charismatic, entertaining, charming or something else along those lines.

Depends. Not always. But the OP is asking how a child who is not nice is popular. I'm saying that this is often how that happens and how despite them breaking all the rules we teach our children about kindness etc, they are social winners.

I agree with your two posts, @anxioussister -- there's a real tendency on Mn, which has more than its fair share of posters who struggle socially, to demonise the socially-confident for just going about their business, and not dedicating themselves to 'including' random people they may barely know.

And yes, @TheYearOfSmallThings, you see that all the time on here. People saying 'Why don't people like me? I run around after other people all the time, I'd do anything for anyone, so why am I always left out?' Speaking for myself, I'm not interested in your capacity to provide services, I don't need you to rescue me or lend me money, I'm primarily interested in whether I find you good company. Which has nothing to do with your loyalty or kindness.

They have to learn early life is not “fair”. You don’t put in dutiful kindness then get automatically rewarded by the friendship of others. Many adults don’t seem to have realised this either.