Page 35 | The teacher from Batley is still in hiding

Nicetrynigel · 2024-12-03T05:55:13+00:00

[[https://neilwilby.com/2024/03/24/batley-grammar-school-teacher-felt-totally-isolated-abandoned-and-suicidal-due-to-inadequate-support-from-relevant-agencies/ Teacher Batley]] His life ruined because a bunch of thugs decided they didn't like what he was teaching in his RE lesson. This and the Labour MP's request for bhalsphey laws against those of the Abrahamic faith have made me concerned. People should be free to offer an view against another's religion. It's scary that we are being a country where people thing being offended gives them a right to made death threats.

ARealitycheck · 07/12/2024 19:16

ItoldyouIwassick · 07/12/2024 19:14

But it's not. It's not an opinion is it?

Unless you are saying that the proposition 'death threats are never justified' is an opinion?

Is that what you are saying?

This is crucial to my being able to understand what you mean.

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Had you taken the time to read any of my posts here, I have always said that death threats and initimdation were entirely wrong.

FrippEnos · 07/12/2024 19:22

ARealitycheck · 07/12/2024 18:50

It is entirely relevant. If that particular school was teaching the same subject as all the others in the area, but they were the only one to use that image. It would suggest a degree of thoughtlesness or even antagonism given the locality.

Please remove the mindset 'oh but we don't complain about pictures of jesus'. 'It's always the muslims getting their way'. It's about respect for all.

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But there is only one group here that isn't showing "respect for all.” and that is the group hounding this man and his family with death threats.

ItoldyouIwassick · 07/12/2024 19:24

ARealitycheck · 07/12/2024 19:16

Had you taken the time to read any of my posts here, I have always said that death threats and initimdation were entirely wrong.

Show quote history

Exactly.

So, let's check this again.

Death threats are always unjustified.

Do you agree?

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:24

The thing is, he showed an image of Muhammad (pbuh). This is not the done thing and I'm sure his students put up with pictures of Jesus and God and the disciples in their Christianity lessons, maybe the patriarchs in the Judaism lessons and all the murtis in their Hinduism lessons and all of the Gurus in their Sikhism lessons and an image of the Buddha in their Buddhism lessons (although admittedly the Buddha isn't regarded as a God or a prophet but just a man to emanate) and his Muslim students just thought, just once, can we please NOT use images in our religion because it is against our beliefs and ANY RE teacher knows this. Do NOT picture Muhammad (pbuh). Just respect Muslims like maybe Jewish students are respected by the teacher writing G-d. IlHe used an image, an offensive one at that, and Muslims prefer calligraphy to express their dedication to Allah. Plus no one knows what he looks like anyway.

The terror of protesting is not right. Protesting outside a school is not right. How Samuel Paty met his end is not right. But just be knowledgeable and respect a religion's beliefs. I think the teacher sounds like an idiot. I speak as an RE teacher of 30+ years. Elementary mistake. He is not fit to teach RE. He is ignorant. But no one deserves terror.

ItoldyouIwassick · 07/12/2024 19:32

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:24

The thing is, he showed an image of Muhammad (pbuh). This is not the done thing and I'm sure his students put up with pictures of Jesus and God and the disciples in their Christianity lessons, maybe the patriarchs in the Judaism lessons and all the murtis in their Hinduism lessons and all of the Gurus in their Sikhism lessons and an image of the Buddha in their Buddhism lessons (although admittedly the Buddha isn't regarded as a God or a prophet but just a man to emanate) and his Muslim students just thought, just once, can we please NOT use images in our religion because it is against our beliefs and ANY RE teacher knows this. Do NOT picture Muhammad (pbuh). Just respect Muslims like maybe Jewish students are respected by the teacher writing G-d. IlHe used an image, an offensive one at that, and Muslims prefer calligraphy to express their dedication to Allah. Plus no one knows what he looks like anyway.

The terror of protesting is not right. Protesting outside a school is not right. How Samuel Paty met his end is not right. But just be knowledgeable and respect a religion's beliefs. I think the teacher sounds like an idiot. I speak as an RE teacher of 30+ years. Elementary mistake. He is not fit to teach RE. He is ignorant. But no one deserves terror.

No.

That isn't how it works.

Death threats cannot be justified.

Not on ground of offence or on any other grounds either.

This is why learning how to reason critically is so important.

Nobody here who is defending the protestors seems to understand this.

Maybe you will engage?

'Death threats are unjustified.'

True or false.

This is the starting proposition, so just an answer to that to clarify before we address the specific case in Batley.

DancingOctopus · 07/12/2024 19:39

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:24

The thing is, he showed an image of Muhammad (pbuh). This is not the done thing and I'm sure his students put up with pictures of Jesus and God and the disciples in their Christianity lessons, maybe the patriarchs in the Judaism lessons and all the murtis in their Hinduism lessons and all of the Gurus in their Sikhism lessons and an image of the Buddha in their Buddhism lessons (although admittedly the Buddha isn't regarded as a God or a prophet but just a man to emanate) and his Muslim students just thought, just once, can we please NOT use images in our religion because it is against our beliefs and ANY RE teacher knows this. Do NOT picture Muhammad (pbuh). Just respect Muslims like maybe Jewish students are respected by the teacher writing G-d. IlHe used an image, an offensive one at that, and Muslims prefer calligraphy to express their dedication to Allah. Plus no one knows what he looks like anyway.

The terror of protesting is not right. Protesting outside a school is not right. How Samuel Paty met his end is not right. But just be knowledgeable and respect a religion's beliefs. I think the teacher sounds like an idiot. I speak as an RE teacher of 30+ years. Elementary mistake. He is not fit to teach RE. He is ignorant. But no one deserves terror.

He was teaching a lesson on freedom of speech to the sixth form. One that had been taught before, by other staff members . Of course he doesn't deserve death threats.
I understand, from what I have read, he was a very popular and respected teacher . It's not for you to judge that he shouldn't be teaching.

Gtfto2024 · 07/12/2024 19:40

Is a pp seriously suggesting that issuing death threats which is illegal, is the equivalent to a couple of under 10 siblings having a spat?

That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/12/2024 19:44

Do NOT picture Muhammad (pbuh). Just respect Muslims like maybe Jewish students are respected by the teacher writing G-d.

This isn't a Muslim country. And there are no anti-blasphemy laws. If we're at a point where teachers are having to tiptoe around a religion that barely existed in the UK until recently then maybe something has gone wrong. Or maybe these people would feel more comfortable in a Muslim-majority country.

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:46

Of course death threats cannot be justified. I thought that would be clear under my statement, 'The terror of protesting is not right' and 'No one deserves terror'. That can be true alongside someone being ignorant and, in my opinion, am idiot.

Nothing in my entry supports the protestors. It is simply a fact that Islam is the only world religion that does not picture people in their tradition. It isn't hard to be a good example to children who you teach and teach them that through example. Yes, you can find anything on the internet and they can do that in their own time if they must, but don't do it in their lesson.

The death threats are a separate issue and incite terror. There are agencies that should be working with the police to quash this subsequent hatred. That's how it works. I don't actually support the protestors and I never said I did. But yes, the teacher is an idiot plus ignorant.

We often say be kind. Just be kind to religious people and respect their beliefs. It's really not hard - unless you want to incite hatred yourself, obviously.

ItoldyouIwassick · 07/12/2024 19:48

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:46

Of course death threats cannot be justified. I thought that would be clear under my statement, 'The terror of protesting is not right' and 'No one deserves terror'. That can be true alongside someone being ignorant and, in my opinion, am idiot.

Nothing in my entry supports the protestors. It is simply a fact that Islam is the only world religion that does not picture people in their tradition. It isn't hard to be a good example to children who you teach and teach them that through example. Yes, you can find anything on the internet and they can do that in their own time if they must, but don't do it in their lesson.

The death threats are a separate issue and incite terror. There are agencies that should be working with the police to quash this subsequent hatred. That's how it works. I don't actually support the protestors and I never said I did. But yes, the teacher is an idiot plus ignorant.

We often say be kind. Just be kind to religious people and respect their beliefs. It's really not hard - unless you want to incite hatred yourself, obviously.

So you answered:

'Death threats are unjustified' - TRUE?

OctoberOctopus · 07/12/2024 19:48

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:24

The thing is, he showed an image of Muhammad (pbuh). This is not the done thing and I'm sure his students put up with pictures of Jesus and God and the disciples in their Christianity lessons, maybe the patriarchs in the Judaism lessons and all the murtis in their Hinduism lessons and all of the Gurus in their Sikhism lessons and an image of the Buddha in their Buddhism lessons (although admittedly the Buddha isn't regarded as a God or a prophet but just a man to emanate) and his Muslim students just thought, just once, can we please NOT use images in our religion because it is against our beliefs and ANY RE teacher knows this. Do NOT picture Muhammad (pbuh). Just respect Muslims like maybe Jewish students are respected by the teacher writing G-d. IlHe used an image, an offensive one at that, and Muslims prefer calligraphy to express their dedication to Allah. Plus no one knows what he looks like anyway.

The terror of protesting is not right. Protesting outside a school is not right. How Samuel Paty met his end is not right. But just be knowledgeable and respect a religion's beliefs. I think the teacher sounds like an idiot. I speak as an RE teacher of 30+ years. Elementary mistake. He is not fit to teach RE. He is ignorant. But no one deserves terror.

Was Allah Muhammed a actual man? I understood he was. Is that incorrect. Jesus was a man. God in Christian religion is depicted as a man, although I understood he was a spirit form.

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:51

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/12/2024 19:44

Do NOT picture Muhammad (pbuh). Just respect Muslims like maybe Jewish students are respected by the teacher writing G-d.

This isn't a Muslim country. And there are no anti-blasphemy laws. If we're at a point where teachers are having to tiptoe around a religion that barely existed in the UK until recently then maybe something has gone wrong. Or maybe these people would feel more comfortable in a Muslim-majority country.

It's also not a Jewish one. Or a Sikh one. Or a Hindu one. But we should respect people's beliefs. Case in point - 10 Downing Street apologising for serving meat and alcohol in their non-Hindu Diwali celebrations. Hindus could have just not eaten that dish and said no thanks to alcoholic drinks, but 10 Downing Street apologised.

If we are going to foster harmony amongst us all, just be nice and respect the main tenets of their faith. It doesn't matter if it's freedom of speech. Maybe we all DON'T have freedom of speech. Or maybe we have the responsibility to censor sone parts of our speech. The picture of Muhammad is non verbal anyway. The concept could have been taught and debated without the actual image.

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:54

ItoldyouIwassick · 07/12/2024 19:48

So you answered:

'Death threats are unjustified' - TRUE?

Show quote history

Can you not infer that from:

'Of course death threats cannot be justified.'

🙄

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/12/2024 19:55

It's also not a Jewish one. Or a Sikh one. Or a Hindu one. But we should respect people's beliefs. Case in point - 10 Downing Street apologising for serving meat and alcohol in their non-Hindu Diwali celebrations. Hindus could have just not eaten that dish and said no thanks to alcoholic drinks, but 10 Downing Street apologised.

I don't think it's as simple as that. As a PP said, this was a lesson on freedom of speech. So what is more important, respecting a belief that isn't relevant to the majority of the population? Hosting a lesson on an important, challenging subject? It's not a hard and fast "respect beliefs".

The second teaching a challenging lesson becomes a life-threatening situation for the teacher involved, I lose all inclination towards respect anyway. As I said, this is a modern democracy with no blasphemy laws. People may not have cared for the lesson but the correct response would have been a discussion with their children, not death threats against a teacher.
How actually dare they?

Maybe we all DON'T have freedom of speech. Or maybe we have the responsibility to censor sone parts of our speech.

What? Seriously? No. This idea should be rejected and pushed back against.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/12/2024 19:59

The UK actually has a recent tradition of taking the piss out of religion. Look at Monty Python, decades ago now.
People should have an equal right to do exactly the same towards Islam as Monty Python did to Christianity. But we all know that won't happen, and why.

And btw I'll defend equally fiercely the right of anyone in the UK to practice their religion freely. This is important. But it should absolutely not impinge on anyone who doesn't share their religious beliefs.

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:59

OctoberOctopus · 07/12/2024 19:48

Was Allah Muhammed a actual man? I understood he was. Is that incorrect. Jesus was a man. God in Christian religion is depicted as a man, although I understood he was a spirit form.

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I suppose it all depends on what you believe. Jesus, for Christians, was God on earth, so divine. So man and God. Muslims do not recognise Jesus' divinity; he was just a man and the second to last prophet after Abraham, Ishmael, Moses etc. The last prophet Muhammad, was just a man. No divinity. But he dislikes the polytheism of Makkah at the time and Allah (Arabic for God) spoke to him and he reiterated the oneness of God that Abraham had introduced in Ur thousands of years before. Jews aren't too bothered about Jesus being a prophet; he was just a Jewish man.

All three religions come from Abraham and his two sons: Ishmael and Isaac.

ARealitycheck · 07/12/2024 20:01

I can find nothing online supporting it being a sixth form lesson on freedom of speech. Some reports tell us the pupils were 14/15 and he was an RE teacher. Who really should have known better no matter what anyone thinks.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/12/2024 20:02

Who really should have known better no matter what anyone thinks.

He shouldn't have had to "know better". He should never have been left in fear of his life over images, in the UK. It's completely wrong.

MumoftwoGirls11 · 07/12/2024 20:02

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:51

It's also not a Jewish one. Or a Sikh one. Or a Hindu one. But we should respect people's beliefs. Case in point - 10 Downing Street apologising for serving meat and alcohol in their non-Hindu Diwali celebrations. Hindus could have just not eaten that dish and said no thanks to alcoholic drinks, but 10 Downing Street apologised.

If we are going to foster harmony amongst us all, just be nice and respect the main tenets of their faith. It doesn't matter if it's freedom of speech. Maybe we all DON'T have freedom of speech. Or maybe we have the responsibility to censor sone parts of our speech. The picture of Muhammad is non verbal anyway. The concept could have been taught and debated without the actual image.

Show quote history

If we are going to foster harmony amongst us, first people need to learn that they can issue death threats and hound people who do things they don’t agree with.

Then we can talk about respect and fostering harmony. Behave like civilised people first, then expect respect.

Tomorrow if I draw a picture of Prophet Mohammad and publish it on social media I will be forced to go into hiding. I refuse to “respect” people who don’t tolerate freedom of speech. I gave up so much to move to the UK because I wanted to enjoy those very freedoms, of speech and individual liberty.

ARealitycheck · 07/12/2024 20:04

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/12/2024 20:02

Who really should have known better no matter what anyone thinks.

He shouldn't have had to "know better". He should never have been left in fear of his life over images, in the UK. It's completely wrong.

And yet again I point out that nobody is saying that was OK to make threats. He should know his actions would be offensive to a significant proportion of his pupils.

ItoldyouIwassick · 07/12/2024 20:05

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:46

Of course death threats cannot be justified. I thought that would be clear under my statement, 'The terror of protesting is not right' and 'No one deserves terror'. That can be true alongside someone being ignorant and, in my opinion, am idiot.

Nothing in my entry supports the protestors. It is simply a fact that Islam is the only world religion that does not picture people in their tradition. It isn't hard to be a good example to children who you teach and teach them that through example. Yes, you can find anything on the internet and they can do that in their own time if they must, but don't do it in their lesson.

The death threats are a separate issue and incite terror. There are agencies that should be working with the police to quash this subsequent hatred. That's how it works. I don't actually support the protestors and I never said I did. But yes, the teacher is an idiot plus ignorant.

We often say be kind. Just be kind to religious people and respect their beliefs. It's really not hard - unless you want to incite hatred yourself, obviously.

To address the respecting of religion. This means allowing people to practice their religions freely in this country. You are not arrested, tortured, imprisoned or killed for practising a religion which is not the religion of the Head of State. That is religious tolerance, that is respect of religions.

Nobody has to respect the individual dictats of a religion that is not their own. Only a Muslim needs to not show pictures of Muhammed to observe their religion, only a Hindu needs to not eat beef to respect theirs, only a Roman Catholic needs to believe in transubstantiation to observe their religion and so on.

In this vein, there must also be respect of people to not believe in your religion or any religion. You cannot force others to observe what is sacrosanct in your religion in this country. This is respect. This is kindness. This is tolerance. Understanding that what is offensive to you may not be to others. But that it OK because we also don't observe things that may be offensive to others.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 07/12/2024 20:06

And yet again I point out that nobody is saying that was OK to make threats. He should know his actions would be offensive to a significant proportion of his pupils.

If you wish to live in a modern secular country, I suggest it's best if you learn not to take offense at these things. It's horribly divisive.
I don't want things going like France in the UK.

ItoldyouIwassick · 07/12/2024 20:09

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 19:54

Can you not infer that from:

'Of course death threats cannot be justified.'

🙄

Show quote history

Great thanks
It's good to be absolutely certain before we go on.

So death threats are always unjustified.

But in the case of the cartoons in Bately the teacher should have been aware that his lesson would provoke death threats?

ARealitycheck · 07/12/2024 20:09

MumoftwoGirls11 · 07/12/2024 20:02

If we are going to foster harmony amongst us, first people need to learn that they can issue death threats and hound people who do things they don’t agree with.

Then we can talk about respect and fostering harmony. Behave like civilised people first, then expect respect.

Tomorrow if I draw a picture of Prophet Mohammad and publish it on social media I will be forced to go into hiding. I refuse to “respect” people who don’t tolerate freedom of speech. I gave up so much to move to the UK because I wanted to enjoy those very freedoms, of speech and individual liberty.

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The biggest mistake you are making with statements like that are that you tar everyone with the same brush. Not all muslims made threats, in fact I'd imagine very few of those parents made a threat of violence.

Askingforadvice78 · 07/12/2024 20:09

MumoftwoGirls11 · 07/12/2024 20:02

If we are going to foster harmony amongst us, first people need to learn that they can issue death threats and hound people who do things they don’t agree with.

Then we can talk about respect and fostering harmony. Behave like civilised people first, then expect respect.

Tomorrow if I draw a picture of Prophet Mohammad and publish it on social media I will be forced to go into hiding. I refuse to “respect” people who don’t tolerate freedom of speech. I gave up so much to move to the UK because I wanted to enjoy those very freedoms, of speech and individual liberty.

Show quote history

Absolutely people do need to learn that. And hopefully there would be consequences for death threats. Because if I made a death threats to someone, presumably I would be a risk to society? Surely this is in the remit of police. Meanwhile, we can lead by example. Respect and be kind, even to religious people.

As an aside, these issues aren't going away. Muhammad is the most popular baby name. Islam presumably is a fast growing religion and church attendance declines. In 100 years things will really change.

I am assuming, though, that non Muslims wouldn't call their son Muhammad.