Intimacy or controlling behaviour?

[blueskyair]

DH thinks physical intimacy equates to love. I see it as an element of a loving relationship, he thinks he’s entitled to it when he wants it, wants me to walk around naked when we’re upstairs because he says it’s what loving couples do, and expects to have access to my body throughout the night eg to ‘hold me’ by his hands on boobs/privates and doesn’t like me moving his hands and showing I have a choice in this, or just so I can sleep. He says he’s not being controlled by me telling him where he can put his hands. Am I wrong now seeing I have a choice in this? I had zero awareness of this when we met 30 years ago, and I have been doing some work to try and understand the dynamics of our relationship which often feels unhealthy. He is very charming outside the home, very sociable and helpful. At home he can be very helpful on a practical level but blows hot and cold and gets angry when things don’t go his way, but if I point this out I become the problem for nagging or being on his back about stuff I’m not ok with. I’ve spent most of the 30 years feeling scared of him and becoming isolated from friends and family, but not recognising this. He generally storms off in a mood and goes out and makes subtle threats if I challenge him. He keeps getting angry (because I’m now seeing his behaviour as not ok and this means I’ve changed eg I’m challenging him) and this reality is killing the relationship especially the physical side, which is creating a cycle because he’s getting more angry about not getting his own way and I’m asking him to understand why him being angry when things don’t go his way and feeling entitled to my body is the problem for me.

His temper is awful and a few months ago he got so aggressive and was physically raging at me and (although has never physically hurt/hit me) and afterwards when things were calmer I said I would need to call the police if it happened again, he just laughed and said ‘they didn’t help you last time’ in reference to my previous relationship experiences of DV when police didn’t act because of ‘lack of physical injuries’. I feel like he’s got a very complex personality, like he’s seemingly friendly and helpful but only if you’re 100% compliant.

It's your body and nobody has any right to touch any part of it without your permission, especially intimately.

Well done for realising his behaviour is not acceptable, it's so hard when it encroaches little by little to see that it's wrong as it becomes your 'normal'. Keep calling him out and keep coming here for a sense check if he tells you something is normal and you're not sure. It can seem "obvious" or "silly" from the outside but you're inside and it's infinitely harder to see, it was others who helped open my eyes and once they were opened slightly I was overwhelmed with how much I could now see that was so so wrong that I had just accepted as normal

You saying you've spent most of the last 30 years scared of him is absolutely heartbreaking.

I assume your previous experience of DV was over 30yrs ago? The police back then didn't recognise DV as a crime but look at how many new laws there are now and specific charges around coercive control etc. They may not have helped you then but they WILL help you now. If you need to call them then ask for an officer trained in domestic abuse

Oh OP, this is awful. You are being controlled and manipulated and sexually abused.

To add to the chorus - no, he has zero entitlement to YOUR body. It is YOUR body. You could be in the middle of having sex with him and if you decide you don't want to anymore, he has NO rights to continue. He doesn't get to touch you without your consent and if he touches you and you ask him to stop, and he refuses or complains, he is sexually assaulting you. If you have sex when you don't want to, it is rape. I am so sorry.

Can you call Womens Aid to get some advice? Do you have children?

Thank you all for the support and understanding. I need to find a way through this next stage. I thought learning about boundaries was the answer but they don’t seem to work in this situation. I really appreciate being able to ask for your input and hearing what others think of this. It’s so hard not wanting to involve others and so this support on here is invaluable. I might come back with other issues I need clarity on xx

Thank you I just find it so hard to say this outloud, but deep down I know it’s true. It has been such a battle to keep holding boundaries and having him push at them. I’ve contacted Womens Aid twice online and they suggest phoning to get a support worker allocated. I know I need to follow this up. Thank you so much

Talk to women's aid. It sounds like you are being financially and emotionally abused, let alone physically.

Don't give him any clues, but let them guide you into a better place to be.

Having boundaries is the first step - recognising what your boundaries are and experiencing the feelings when someone violates them.

Holding boundaries is much harder. You've built up patterns over the past three decades where his desires are prioritised over your boundaries, and there will be lots of reasons given why that is reasonable, to the point that you are really uncertain whether you are being reasonable, or possibly even what you want.

To assert your boundary, you need to express it clearly, and there needs to be a consequence if your boundary is ignored. Actually holding boundaries and expecting them to be respected is the first one.

This is so, so hard, because you are scared of the consequences. It is entirely reasonable to find this frightening.

Have a look at how your husband responds to other people's boundaries - people he respects. I bet he respects their boundaries - I bet he anticipates some people's boundaries and doesn't go near them. So he can do it, he's just choosing not to.

You can learn to hold boundaries. I've been through this in relationships with various people. Once you start doing it, it feels liberating and you realise that what you want is important. You need people to support you - women's aid, family members, friends - when you are wavering they can remind you why it matters. An outside eye to recognise patterns of behaviour, and encourage you to persist (because it's so tempting to just give in 'on this occasion') makes a massive difference.

I really hope you manage to do this. He has no right to touch you when you don't want to be touched or denand that you walk around naked.

I left an abusive man After 40years of marriage. This continues through the divorce where hé won to divorce out of the UK. I live in France where it's totally différent. He's now holding up the last stage just because hé can.
The main thing is that i'm free and no longer walking on eggshells around him.
You could be too.

Thank you for your response, it’s very insightful and accurately describes my experiences. I’ve always been scared of the consequences and his threats and storming off for hours have created an understanding that having a boundary won’t be tolerated, so there has always been some kind of ‘punishment’ in the form of moodiness, silent treatment or absence. It is so, so hard to keep going when there is so much pushback, and when I get close to taking the next step he knows, and the cycle/pattern starts again, he knows just when to behave differently so I question things all over again. I appreciate your input and encouragement on how to push through this process xx

I feel so sad reading this
I was in a similar position . For 40 years and more. I thought it was normal . Normal to be rehearsing my excuses if I was late ( eg stuck in traffic)
Apologising all the time
Not allowed to sleep
His snapping at the children when I didn't do my " duty"
After 20+ years of this, and being gaslighted ( he was charming to everyone else) I heard my mother tell her friend she was afraid of him .so I left and went to my mother. She was horrified and told me " I had made my bed and had to lie on it: so I went back. He manipulated and bullied me.
He spied on me ,wouldn't let me have friends, we had no money . We lived in the back of beyond.
When our children were adults he was worse. I found out he was a voyeur , an abuser and not safe around women.
Eventually I was able to leave. He's dead now . 50 years I was married. I've never been touched by someone who loves me. Our sons took his side ,blamed me for leaving . I'm content now but ...what a waste. Please leave. He's horrible. He will get worse. My light bulb moment came when I was diagnosed with a serious illness . The fear of being helpless and " cared for" by him was greater than the fear of being on my own .

Thank you, I’m sorry the divorce is no different and you are still going through this final stage. From my previous experiences, I had this too and this experience impacts me now, because the divorce was so hard and it’s even harder to face again with this knowledge. I’m glad you can now live freely xx

So much if what you said is relatable, and I’m so sorry to hear this is your experience. I too have had the thought of not wanting to be cared for (if/when needed) by him. Thank you for your encouragement xx

@blueskyair Hi OP, I think that perhaps you have come on here in the faint hope that someone might understand how you feel, and it is probably coming as quite a shock to realise just how many people are telling you that his behaviour towards you is 100% abusive, and has been for a long time. Physical, sexual, emotional and financial. It is all there. You are in fear of him.

Please find someone to talk to - Womens Aid would be a good start, and you will then begin to be able to find a way to cope with this in a way that suits your own circumstances.

It really is a huge shock, and I wasn’t expecting to receive such a clear response, and I’m grateful for the clarity. I need to consider what to do next. Thank you xx

I thought if I could just be " better" " nicer" whatever he wanted ,we would be happy. I suffered terribly with post natal depression but most of it was because he was jealous of the baby and became even more demanding. And then he would change. Be charming funny,say all the right things and I would think that it wasn't too bad. So I stayed. And it would all start again. I felt like I was holding my breath. Eventually I decided I was going . There were many difficulties ( not least him crying threatening suicide ,frightening me so much) but I just kept sight of the fact that whatever anyone did or said I was going . I had no support from anyone but have never regretted it. Please think of yourself . I actually booked a hotel and spent a night alone thinking as I couldn't think straight when he was around. It took a long time but I got away. Hope you are OK. Even writing it down is hard but believe what people on MN are saying. This is wrong. It is not you .

Sounds like my exH. He complained bitterly that "women control sex" and even asked me to imagine how it must feel for him having to have sex with a woman who didn't want it. (!). He demanded that I remove my clothes at night in a specific order to please him, and believed he had rights over me as my husband. After 17 years of this shit I realized what was going on and divorced him .

I suggest you do likewise.

He doesn't own you.

He does NOT get an opinion on what you can wear or not wear.

He's a controlling, pathetic excuse of a man.

You deserve so, so much better.

Your body, your choice if anyone touches it

Fucking hell op this is probably one of the more depressing and shocking things I have read on Mumsnet. He thinks it's up to him where and when he puts his hands on you? So is it equally up to you where and when you put your hands on him? No of course it isn't and you must know this. He needs your permission to touch your body and no means no. I am wondering where you learnt in your past that your body is not your own and that you are not allowed to have boundaries.

Who the fuck is the 1% voting ur? Clearly an idiot, hopefully a miss hit!

Please seek support to get away from him. Who does he think he is telling you he should not be controlled by not being allowed to feel you up all night yet you can’t tell him no?! Absolute wanker.

You are not your husband's plaything to do with as he pleases. You do have autonomy over your body.

Please follow up on the Women's Aid support worker. They will be able to help you with next steps.

Coercive control and sexual assault are crimes. You can report them to the Police and they will believe you despite what your awful husband might say. Please look after yourself and stay safe.

As others have said, please speak to Women's Aid. Be very careful about asserting boundaries though. As your H is aggressive and this will worsen if he feels that you are getting stronger and possibly leaving.

No matter what you do, I don't believe that H will ever change into a reasonable human and I would very much hope that you could become strong enough to leave.

Do you work or have children? Own your own house? If you were to divorce, you should be entitled to a share of any assets, regardless of whether you currently have access to them.

Sorry you're having to tolerate this.

This post spoke volumes. The fact you've been in a DV relationship before - it's actually very common for DV victims to end up in a controlling relationship again.

His behaviour is NOT acceptable, not right, and not normal.

Are there any children involved in this relationship? Do you work? Do you have your own separate bank account?

Your body is your own and just because he's your husband doesn't mean your body becomes his property. If you say no to him touching you, it means no. If you want to wear PJs and get a good night sleep then you are entitled to do that.

I would find his behaviour repulsive and such a turn off.

Stay safe and speak to Women's Aid for advice.