Callous doctors?

[cornflakecrunchie]

Why do they tell (especially older people) nowadays that they're going to die? Would you want to know? I certainly wouldn't. I can't understand why they aren't 'treated' with some placebo.. the power of the human mind would otherwise see them off faster, or maybe that's what's wanted these days?
The (two) people that I know of are just sitting at home now, wondering if the next symptom means The End.

Discussed with her team, with my sister's permission, they were surprised by the speed at which the tumour was growing and wondered if it had an industrial cause. We thought it might have been from fuel fumes she ingested on the flarepath when she had been an air stewardess in the 1960s.

I think people expect far too much of GPs tbh. Do you know how many GP suicides there have been recently? Probably not.

If anything, we need to talk more openly about illness, death and dying ( society as a whole)

Absolutely! I'm in my early 60's and when I was a child it was considered completely normal for older people to die at home. We were sad when an elderly person died but not shocked (or frightened) as it was seen as natural and inevitable.

With all the modern medical advances at our disposal we seem to be under the impression that we can cheat death, absolutely anything must be preferable to dying. We do a lousy job of providing palliative care and support to the elderly. We are unwilling to allow people to die with dignity and grace. I find this terribly sad.

We didn't want an elderly relative to know because she had dementia and it would do her no good too she died of something else in the end anyway

Another relative was very blasé about her diagnosis when nothing more could be done her husband was in pieces at the news

My father is refusing cancer testing because if he has it they can't do anything about it because he is so sick anyway what is the point

It just depends on your circumstances

Every procedure which is done under general anesthetic has the risk of death, for every patient. I believe it is required by law that this is disclosed.

I'd sooner they were honest.

Some things are just obvious aren't they, if someone had a major heart attack and survived there is going to be an increased chance of another major heart attack that they may well not survive. I would be amazed if a doctor said if you have another one like that you will be fine, the same with strokes and if you are being treated for cancer you know what stage it is and whether the possible treatments are running out. What's the point of a doctor lying about it.

If you can't believe what the doctors tell you, you wouldn't be able to believe good news either, 'the doctor says the treatment worked and I'm fine, but I know I'm dying and he's just lying to me to be kind'.

It doesn't need to be said in the way it was on those two occasions though, as such an offhand, flippant remark. I've had other procedures that have had risks fully explained without it literally just being that one sentence, almost mentioned as an afterthought, and then the doctor walking away.

I don't need to put myself in this situation. Relevant people debated it and agreed it was unethical to withhold medical information. Doctors have to comply with ethical codes of their profession. Not to mention that your personal opinion cannot be reasonably extrapolated to the rest of the population. You don't want to know, that's your prerogative and you can discuss it with your own doctor. You can also arrange private care to prescribe and oversee your placebo medication. I can't imagine there is capacity in the NHS to spare a doctor to fanny around with sugar pills.

I don't know when but I'm glad I know my life is limited. I once shared your opinion. I hate the phrase 'making memories' but admit knowing makes me want to celebrate every chance I get. I take my adult DC on holiday and we all get together for events as often as possible.
I probably go OTT, but I no longer care what anyone else thinks and no longer sweat the small stuff. Nothing is saved for best and I make sure DH and DC know how much I love them every day.
It was heartbreaking to hear DS2 say only yesterday that seeing his DB marry earlier this year makes him worry I won't be there for his wedding. I've beaten the odds so far and I've no intention of going anywhere yet. That's all I can say and hope for as long as possible.

You are utterly ridiculous. You want doctors to lie to their patients? Where do you draw the line? You are obviously very stupid.

Doctors have to treat patients as if they are adults. Withholding information from patients is cruel. I would want to know. And yes I would want to know that another incident will probably kill me. I would want to know so I can say my goodbyes and I definitely don't want anyone making a decision not to tell me on my behalf without talking about it first.

Imagine not being told you might die and going about your life, potentially in ways that might hasten your death, because a well-meaning relative thinks you're not strong enough to hear the news. This isn't the 1950s any more. People have autonomy.

It is frightening but we can't protect people from uncomfortable things Where do you draw the line?

In any case I am a DNR if my hear stops, even though I have no life threatening illnesses, and expect to live another 30-40 years, simply because doctors consistently say when asked about end of life care, that they want pain relief and no special measures.

I would much, much rather they be honest & state facts.

A doctor definitely shouldn't be treating anyone with placebo pills telling them they will recover when they won't. They would be struck off.

There are worse things than death. Trying to treat someone in terminal decline causes immense suffering.

My DH's grandmother had a fall and was feeling so unwell. She turned to me one day and said 'I just feel so very tired. I just feel so unwell and I don't know why.' She was dying of bladder cancer. If she had known, she would have been able to have good palliative care, and her family could have made different decisions about where they spent their time in her last weeks.

Having worked on stroke wards, it's very common to tell patients that chest infections are the most likely thing to kill a stroke patient, and that they can choose whether they receive antibiotics, which will likely delay the inevitable, or whether to allow the natural consequences of an untreated chest infection.

Patients are also allowed to decide not to know. Doctors are usually quite good at working out if patients are choosing to live in denial, and will use quite careful language to explore whether a patient wants to know that they are approaching a terminal state.

@cornflakecrunchie Stop smoking is healthcare advice, the contents of your medical records is medical information.

People are going to notice they’re dying when the community nurse comes round with a syringe driver and a script for midazolam and oxycodone.

@HampsteadHeathen
But hopefully not rude to posters, as you are.

I know what you mean OP. My DF - who was elderly - was told all the detail including timescale of his terminal diagnosis at the first test result consultation by a friendly and brisk (female) consultant and it was a huge shock. All hope was immediately taken away. She said she knew he'd want to know everything because he was a very intelligent man and had been asking lots of questions about his symptoms.

But I could have told her (I was there but obviously had no way of intervening) that despite her characterisation of him, he would have done much better with a lot less precision in the expression of that diagnosis. People's experiences of his illness vary and it involved no specific treatment so while knowing he wouldn't recover, he was the sort of person who would have been able to have more enjoyment of the time he had left with some vagueness around that timeline. As it was, he just literally sat waiting to die.

Doctors delivering diagnoses like that are best if they are very good readers of people, not all are.

How awful, @BinaryDot - your poor Dad - & you.
That's exactly what I meant about the people I know. No more popping to shops or anything. All the enjoyment of simple day to day things is gone. It surely doesn't have to be like that. :-(

All the enjoyment of simple day to day things is gone. It surely doesn't have to be like that. :-(

What is the alternative? Are you suggesting that a doctor should not be honest with a patient about having a terminal illness? Pretend it's "curable" with some sugar pills?

You are desperately trying to avoid the inevitable grief and sadness that goes along with terminal illness and that's impossible.

My mum died five years ago, terminal cancer. They never once directly told her she was dying, until she asked.

They did say things like

"I feel it would be unfair to put your body through any more painful treatment "

"You have worked hard now let's look at making you comfortable "

This was similar to an elderly relative of mine who was told that his cancer was no longer treatable (he'd had surgery and a brief remission before the cancer returned).

I thought the doctor handled it very well. There was no discussion of timeline until my relative specifically asked.

Unless someone has specifically asked not to be told they are dying think they have a duty to disclose it. It's not callous, it's factual medical info. I do recall a neighbour who had made plain she would not cope with a terminal diagnosis was not directly informed; the doctor just discussed the next steps in her palliative treatment with her but did inform her spouse who had attended with her. She would definitely have had a complete mental breakdown otherwise. I don't know how strict guidelines are for medics on this issue - but I think they are supposed to fully inform the patient. Most people want to know so they can get their affairs in order.

What? You want your doctors to lie to you? What the hell is wrong with you?

If I found out my doctors and DH had been planning exactly what I was allowed to know about my own medical condition, I’d be furious with both of them.

In Japan, husbands are told about their wife’s breast cancer and the women are kept in the dark. Actively lied to in some cases, even when the patient is explicitly asking for the truth. I think that is abominable.

If you want to go back to the Victorian era where your husband or son makes medical decisions on your behalf and you are patted on the head and told it‘s none of your business, good for you. Move to Afghanistan and you can have as little say in your own healthcare as you want.

Their choice though.

Presumably the dr hasn’t told them never to leave the house ever again?

I’ve been told that if I end up back in hospital again it’s unlikely I will make it out. Such is life.

Presumably if someone has a heart condition they know that death is a distinct possibility.