Callous doctors?

[cornflakecrunchie]

Why do they tell (especially older people) nowadays that they're going to die? Would you want to know? I certainly wouldn't. I can't understand why they aren't 'treated' with some placebo.. the power of the human mind would otherwise see them off faster, or maybe that's what's wanted these days?
The (two) people that I know of are just sitting at home now, wondering if the next symptom means The End.

This. And if, when I am old, some doctor takes it upon themselves to lie to me out of kindness, I won’t be bloody happy about it.

@VexedofVirginiaWater
I'm so, so sorry.. I agree with everything you've said. You're obviously much better with words than I am, but I think what we both don't understand is the lack of compassion.
Bless you. I hope you are healing. I know how long it takes.

This as well. People really don't understand what CPR involves. Even on a young person, it's brutal. But on a frail elderly person it's barbaric.

I think they're very good at being patient led on these issues.

But surely this is exactly why we should tell patients not only the truth, but also likely outcomes and what happens next. If it was me in that situation I would like to have a DNR, and talk that through with my family. I would appreciate being able to make an informed decision.

It’s not callous to be honest with people about their health. It’s literally a doctor’s job and any other route would be negligent. It would be cruelty of the highest degree to ‘treat’ with a placebo and give people and their families false hope that would inevitably be dashed.

Coming to terms with death is hard but it’s not fair to place the burden of deciding whether to lie about it on doctors. They are professionals and their job is to tell the truth. Many people are grateful to know the truth so that they can mentally prepare, make any necessary arrangements, and make plans to spend the remainder of their days in ways which are meaningful to them.

DH is a doctor and has to deal with multiple formal complaints per year from relatives of patients who have died who didn't think they were going to. This is in spite of him always being very straightforward with the facts. You can't win.

It has always been taboo to talk about death and dying but these days health care professionals are taught not to skirt around the issue. The person deserves to know medical facts. They may need to get their affairs in order and think about advance care planning like "do not resuscitate" orders. We were told my grandfather was "poorly" we didn't know what that meant, turns out he was dying. Had they told us that we would have dealt with things differently.

I agree.

As someone who has made end of life decisions with and for both of my parents, I would want to know. As a person with a devout religious faith I would want time to pray, say goodbye, be comforted and be at peace ready to meet my God.

This is a why advanced care planning is really important.
As part of my job I try and open up discussions with people about what their wishes are when they come to this stage. Some people want all the treatment possible right to the end. Some want some things treated, such as reversible infections, but that's all. Some just want pain relief and to be made comfortable. Same with where this will happen. I meet a lot of older people who absolutely do not want to go into hospital for any reason. Others are happy to go in some circumstances but not others.

These are conversations that need to be had with the person who is front and centre of it, the patient. Of course family can be involved, but the decisions are not theirs to make unless the patient defers to them.

Interestingly, many years ago I studied death and dying in children. I read a fascinating book on a study done on children in a hospital with terminal diagnoses. The children had not been told they were terminal. All that was kept from them. The anthropologist undertaking the study was able to see through their behaviours and actions that the children did know they were going to die. They didn't speak about it for fear of upsetting their parents and because they were aware that it was something that was not to be discussed. But through the type of play they engaged in, it was clear that they knew. That was so sad. To the end they were protecting their parents rather tbs the parents protecting them.

People should be told.

You lied to your sister? What did you think she needed to hear? Did DM make Christmas? If you were my sister I would not forgive that.

@Thatdarncat44

I was thinking the same 🙄

We’re all going to die, you can’t withhold peoples medical information from them and treat them like children.

My DM(85) was signing consent for an operation. The surgeon came to the DNR part and asked DM.

Her initial response was that she was not ready to go yet. The surgeon then explained what would be involved and what the likely outcome would be. DNR was the decision.

If that's what the patient feels is best for them and they choose not to die in hospital, then yes.

It's about dignity and making informed choices.

We were told our chances of IVF working were under 11%. We chose not to go ahead. If they had said it was 50/50 I might have given it a whirl. But with such poor odds, I decided I didn't want to put my body through the process.

It was a choice. And a medical one where I needed all the information to make that choice.

Same for illness and death IMO - I want to know my odds, the choices and the consequences.

Honesty is so important and I’ve been there recently with my son but thankfully, against all the odds he survived.

Doctors had to sit down and have difficult conversations with me multiple times.

“I need to tell you that he’s at risk for another cardiac arrest. If it happens again, I want you to know that we’ll do everything we can I promise but the odds aren’t good. We’re trying to get him stable enough to transfer to the city hospital because he needs surgery”

“He needs surgery but he’s so poorly that he may not survive the surgery but without the surgery, he definitely won’t survive”

”He made it through surgery but I have to be honest with you, I’m still very worried about him and the next 48 hours will be critical”

”I’m so sorry, his conditioned has worsened overnight. Visiting hours no longer apply to your family, tell them to come and visit him. Would you like him to be christened?”

“We just got the test results back. I’m so sorry but he does have cancer”

These doctors and surgeons weren’t callous. They were doing their jobs and they still have to do their jobs even when the news they have to tell someone is devastating and unimaginable.

Everyone is going to die.

I was grateful to the consultant that sat us down and told us that it was the end for my dad. Days and weeks, not months.

Thank you - I am mostly OK and then I read something or see something on the TV and it comes back to me. There was a lot of other stuff too which I obviously couldn't include as my post was too long as it was, but reading threads like this, I can see lots of opinions which I myself might well have written 10, 20, 30 or more years ago (I am 70 now), but experience has tempered my opinion.

Healthcare staff just don't have the time, I know, to tailor their communications to the situation of the patient, but it all leads to - oh I dunno - truthfulness for sure, but somehow a lack of humanity. Also I do realise that doctors and nurses must be aware that there are some litigious patients so they have to do everything by the book - but maybe that book needs a bit of editing. Also, I don't know why my father's closest relative (me) couldn't be consulted.

As it is, my last memory of Dad (I couldn't visit Mum when she was dying because I was too ill with covid - but my brother did) is of him so, so sad and anxious, knowing he was dying among strangers and just wanting it to be over. They were both so ill they seemed to have forgotten about the pandemic and couldn't understand why I wasn't visiting them. He was allowed out of the nursing home to attend my mother's funeral but couldn't understand why I wasn't allowed back in with him and he told my brother that he thought I wasn't bothering with him. That haunts me too. And I am still annoyed with my brother for not defending me. I did phone Dad to explain that I had been ill too and there were rules, but am not sure he could hear me properly.

you cant tell someone you have an illness but dont worry you won't die yet.
you cant lie to patients
withholding information is the same thing. there are only circumstances when you can withhold, which is when a patient would be at serious risk

It isn't callous - it's treating you as an adult who should understand your situation as fully as possible. I would certainly wish to be told the truth

There was a time not so long ago when people weren’t told they were dying. Which was outrageous.

My husband was chronically ill, lived a very good life depspite that, and died young. We certainly apprecatiated the honesty and transparency of his consultants in telling us the truth. To do otherwise would seem very wrong to me, and giving people false hope is cruel in the extreme

If I had a life - threatening condition I wouldn't want doctors pussyfooting about concealing information from me.

I'd rather know than be fobbed off. And that way I can get my affairs in order, spend as much time with family as possible, make memories for as long as I am able to.

Doctors may treat different patients differently and some people manage to ignore information they aren’t ready for.