To feel this way about society perceptions?

[Autumnal589]

That a woman, especially an older one of say 40 is still judged by whether she has a man or kids ? I remember when my aunt turned 40 many years back now and my brother commented with 'She hasn't had kids or married so I get why she's down about being 40.' Also on MN, I have been told "You don't have kids or a man so you just have to be really good at your job to be worthy.'

It isn't any different for men though, who are judged as though there's something wrong with them if they're still single at 40. It's nothing to do with being a woman.

I’m not sure it differs much for men who are single and child free at 40. I suspect most on MN would view it as a “red flag”.

I agree with this. I know a woman who got a lot of stick because she was seeing a man in his early 40s - because he hadn't had a long term relationship before. They've been together six years now, and are very happy - thankfully she paid no attention to other people's petty biases.

I guess so.
Just sad that in 2024, this is still the case. It makes me feel I have little or no value. That I am just a glaring red flag.

Who is doing the judging?

You set your own value.

What is important to you - how do you achieve and enjoy those things?

Your aim is presumably to have a happy, fulfilling, useful (?) life; I'd focus on that.

I wouldn't worry about what some people think .....ateotd a lot of people are not very intelligent and not very nice.

Hmmm personally I wouldn’t judge but that’s me. I’d probably think good for you if anything. Well as long as they didn’t start saying how much they wanted to be in a relationship and have a child.

I worked for a lady who didn't marry or have kids.

I don't think it would have been compatible with her chosen career when she started studying for it ..... but I don't think she wanted to marry or have kids anyway.

She loved her job, she did lots of volunteer etc stuff related to her job, she attended lots of civic trust stuff semi related to her job, she loved art, she went to gallery stuff, she went to music stuff, she was an active member of her Church, she always had dogs, she visited family and they visited her (all the generations), she went to horse racing events, she went on holidays - including scuba diving in her 70s in Egypt, she had a little sail boat and sailed that, and also crewed for people on yachts for breaks/holidays in the Med ...... She had a very full, very active life and a lot of people had admiration and affection for her.

I was told she had an admirer, in a related profession who sent her valentine's cards every year, I don't think she wasn't interested in anything romantic or relationship wise.

She never gave a @#*+ about people judging her, what they thought of her, it just wouldn't have occurred to her to care or pay it attention. She did her thing and lived her life the way she wanted to (sadly she passes away recently in her 80s).

If people want to be narrow minded and intolerant of anyone not fitting some mould ....that would be a reflection of their limitations.

People who would judge in that way have a very narrow view of what constitutes life.

As a woman, I feel like you get judged whatever you do, whether you’re a mother or not, so may as well do what makes you happy! You have value, OP 💐

Just to add - "value".

If you follow the view that a woman's only value is as a mother or partner, then we may as well just give up and become Nazi Germany with Kinder Kuche Kirche or become Gilead.

Women have always fulfilled roles outside that and are fulfilling more and more on an ongoing basis.
I'm sure you, like me, can think of numerous women whom you are intensely grateful are fulfilling working roles, and doing them well.

But that's still thinking along lines of someone's value to others whereas we should probably be thinking about our value to ourselves. As above, it should be about you leaving a fulfilling, happy life.

Value to others is a sketchy concept when "others" are very fallible and selfish etc human beings.

I think this is about you, not other people. I was single till almost 40, never felt judged, never met someone I wanted to share my life with up to that point so I wasn't going to just have a baby with anyone. I think it shows a sense of self sufficiency and possibly good boundaries.

I think reasonable people with a brain realise that some people, male and female, might end up single and without kids at eg 40. For all sorts of reasons.
They might continue to be single, they might equally not. They might meet the person with whom they have a lasting relationship in their 40s or beyond

Or maybe they're genuinely the sort of person who prefers to be single - as I said, my late employer was like that, my partner's uncle is like that.

Some people have kids relatively late, some experience parenthood as step parents and step grandparents, some, like the lady I posted about, experience children through relative's kids & grandkids. Some might interaction with kids through their work or hobbies or volunteering.

Nothing is cut and dried.

And even if someone doesn't get into a relationship, that doesn't mean they have low value ..... Someone's value is not in being in a relationship.

I agree with this. Most people are uneducated or misinformed about most subjects and / or are projecting their own insecurities around. Most people have very very narrow views based on their immediate lives, surroundings and upbringing.

Also agree with PP about being judged whatever you do as a woman, mostly by other women, and especially by women from previous generations.

Is 40 an "older woman"?

Well I don't think about my child free / single friends like that. We are in our 50s now. It's a really strange perspective. All my single / child free mates have very full and interesting lives - more interesting than mine! I wouldn't like to be friends with anyone who thinks my worth comes from being married with kids. It's insulting to everyone.

things might be somewhat better i doubt anyone under the age of 50 is familiar with the terms spinster/spinstress which was one step better than old maid and old bachelor.

@GildedRage ""things might be somewhat better i doubt anyone under the age of 50 is familiar with the terms spinster/spinstress which was one step better than old maid and old bachelor"

I'm over the age of 50 but I have never heard the terms spinstress or old batchelor!

Personally, the societal perception on this thread that I find most worrying is the idea that 40 year olds are "older women"!

I’m in my thirties with children, so I can’t relate, but I do think older women are judged for being single and especially for having no children. Why? Well good ol’ fashioned sexism of course. I believe some men are judged if they are still single, but only the ugly ones, but good looking men are seen as studs of single and over 40, and the question of children doesn’t even come into the equation!

With work colleagues have known who are older women who have never had children, they have often seemed younger in their years and often look younger too, just from my perspective.

@ByHardyRubyEagle

I can believe this. I’m 41 and my youngest has been through uni and moved out. He says I act like I’m so much older than his 40 year old colleagues and need to realise how young I am. I think some of it is maturity you only get from putting someone else first, and going through the mess of life - you can’t un-mature yourself. I’d love to get back to that bright-eyed bushy tailed mindset.

Currently I’m actually inspired by women who don’t do the family thing by choice. I assume they must know how to live well for themselves and get up to more interesting things than I do!

People always mistake me for being a hell of a lot younger which I think is because I don't have kids. But don't think I've had it easy. I have chronic health issues which have caused untold stress on my life.

I have definitely heard the term spinster as well and crazy cat lady. Honestly, sometimes I feel I have have to hide the fact that I adore cats as it feeds into that horrible stereotype. I do feel as well that at almost 40, I am an older woman also.

I mean I would assume that a woman (or a man for that matter) who was 40 and hadn't had a relationship with someone or kids wasn't particularly interested in either.

Mostly on the basis that people who want relationships go out and find them.

That might well mean they are a very interesting person who has done lots of stuff, but in the same way that if someone was 40 and never had a job I would assume it wasn't important to them.

They don't necessarily go out and find them though do they ? 0r sometimes they do and it doesn't work out. Not everyone is lucky enough to meet 'The one' in their lifetime.
Most people I know met their OH in a natural way like through work, at a party or through mutual friends.
I'm not all that bothered to be honest but I know that makes me unusual.

I think this is one of the rare occasions where both sexes are judged. If anything I'd say men probably with even more negativity. A single man in his 40s is often suspected of being some sort of weirdo that no woman wants. Whereas a woman may be at least be afforded the dubious accolade of being a man hating feminist/power mad career woman. I think its assumed that the thing 'wrong' with the single woman is she failed to make the 'right' choice. Whereas the thing 'wrong' with the single man is some sort of flaw that means he has no choice.

It just seems so depressing that in 2024, a persons worth is still judged so much on their relationship status.