Did anybody see the Panaroma about binge drinking last night?

[Orangelight23]

Real eye opener for me. Women in their 30s being diagnosed with liver disease. I must admit I have myself been drawn into wine culture and drinking wine to relax.

It's made me have a real think about my alcohol intake to be honest.

I've always had a problematic relationship with alcohol. I was painfully shy and when I started to drink - when I was 18 - I embraced it because it allowed me to actually talk to people. Since then I've used it periodically to self medicate because of anxiety , depression etc. In short to numb my brain.
I married an alcoholic and mixed with the heavy drinkers. And I left my marriage because I knew alcohol would kill me if I didn't.
Since then I've had periods of heavy drinking, moderate drinking and total abstinence. Currently two and a half years sober.
As pp have said its not just the effects on the liver that is so negative. It's the effects on brain function, mental health , the link to cancer, the effect on the lungs etc. And that's not even talking about the financial hit, the chance of accidents, the violence, the effect on families. The list goes on.
I feel great not drinking - mentally alert, much slimmer, more energy. But there are still days when I would love to sit down with a glass of wine. But I wouldn't stop until I'd drunk the bottle. Never more than a bottle. But I'm aware what a slippery slope I'd be starting on again.

Drink had a real hold on me at one time. Not daily, but whenever I had money in my pocket and time on my hands I'd go for a drink or two and not stop until I was hammered.

Stopped alcohol altogether for about two years and that changed something in me, such that since I've started having a few drinks again it's been the occasion rather than the norm, with several months in between.

I think one of the reasons is that I also gave up smoking slightly after that, thanks to the introduction of the vape, but still like a cigarette with a drink even now - it's that throat-hit thing. Knowing how much more addictive that is though, not to mention the extra fifteen quid or whatever it costs right now to make sure there's a pack of twenty in my pocket, definitely helps me keep pub visits to a minimum.

Then there's the three-day hangovers...

And heart disease too. High drinking in this 2024 study is defined as eight drinks or more a week. Moderate drinking is three to seven drinks a week.
www.thetimes.com/uk/article/womens-heart-disease-risk-rises-more-than-one-drink-day-bvgb2bq0m

’Having at least eight alcoholic drinks a week on average significantly raises the risk of heart problems in young and middle-aged women, a study has found.

Women who drink more than one glass of wine a day are 45 per cent more likely to develop heart disease, research shows.’

I love wine and in my twenties and thirties probably had at least a bottle or two a week with a few G&T’s thrown in too.

I’m in my early 40’s and barely drink a bottle over the course of a month now. Being a parent probably has a lot to do with it but the health risks became scarier and more real to me, especially the link with breast cancer.

One of the reports suggested that binge drinking was more harmful than regular, moderate drinking.

How large?

On the flipside only 1 in 3 heavy drinkers will ever suffer ill effects to their liver so the majority will not

I've had significant alcohol issues, to the point of needing intervention. Had the liver function test, blood tests etc. All fine. It's like anything else, some people get away with it, some don't. I'm not saying the alcohol didn't have other negative effects. Just that my liver is fine!

The way I looked at it was I needed to quit while I was "ahead". Before there was actually something seriously wrong. But if I'm being totally truthful, finances was the biggest motivator. It's not cheap buying 10+ bottles of wine a week!

Exercise won’t prevent the risk of alcohol related cancers, dementia or CVD if you regularly drink that many units. That’s more than ‘a few wines’, and I say that as an ex drinker who regularly drank 3-4 bottles per week.

I drink 2-3 bottles a week but already out with two days off. I do want to cut down but not completely as I also am really interested in, and enjoy, wine

Final link.

It is a concern for the World Health Organisation across Europe when it comes to breast cancer. Article from this year.

www.who.int/europe/news/item/07-03-2024-shouldn-t-we-know-this-already--the-link-between-alcohol-and-cancer

‘Breast cancer cases in Europe higher than ever
Breast cancer represents a major health concern for women across the WHO European Region, with more than 600 000 cases in 2022. The role of alcohol as a preventable risk factor for breast cancer is critical. For women in Europe, breast cancer is the primary cancer caused by alcohol, making up 66% of all cases of alcohol-attributable cancers.
Research indicates that even relatively low levels of alcohol consumption can contribute to the risk of developing breast cancer. More than half of all breast cancer cases attributable to alcohol in Europe are not due to heavy drinking, and about one third of new cases every year are due to drinking the equivalent of up to 2 small glasses of wine per day.‘

I’m not mocking. Genuinely. I’m really not. My mum was problematic with alcohol and she was also given a booklet when she had cancer by MacMillan telling her not to burn scented candles. I think my point is that I feel quite enraged to be honest by alcohol. It’s easy to say oh I had a wine o clock but then I just stopped or whatever but the truth is for many many people, alcohol is a highly addictive substance. It ruins so many lives but the fact is… many lives were ruined by other humans and that’s why many people turn to alcohol in the first place. Even if they drink for fun- it’s highly addictive! We aren’t meant to live the way we live. It’s toxic and awful and isolating and anxiety inducing and that’s a reason so many people turn to alcohol in the first place. There’s massive research to say that those who become addicted have certain pathways in their brain light up when they consume alcohol as opposed to people who find it easier to give up. I get very angry with programs that talk only about the damage alcohol causes because we all know this. People don’t stop drinking because of the damage it causes. It’s addictive. Highly adductive. And people who know they are literally going to die can’t stop. And you can buy it in any supermarket for pennies. I’m not mocking anything other than the fact that people think a program highlighting liver damage is the answer.

Yep. I think it's really easy to say "well, we're here for a good time not a long time" but things like liver disease can mean the end of your life is spent in agony, not being able to keep food down and being too weak to do anything except lie in bed. Living with ill-health in your fifties and beyond can be really, really miserable.

I've sadly seen someone with alcoholic liver failure at the end of their life and it was absolutely horrendous. Not a death I would wish on my worst enemy. She was only in her fifties but looked about 85. It was incredibly sad.

I didn’t watch the programme but, if I’m being brutally honest, a couple of years ago, that could’ve been me. I’ve cut right back and mostly have spritzers now with the occasional ‘neat’ glass of wine or two when eating out. I know there’s still times when I drink more than is good for me but I do have 4/5 days alcohol free almost every week and generally speaking, I keep within the limits. Interestingly, I had a raft of bloods done recently and my liver function was satisfactory and I intend to keep it that way.

Speak for yourself but I’m aiming to make it 100. You don’t need alcohol to have a good time. I used to be regular drinker but don’t even drink weekly now. Don’t miss it all. In fact I dread occasions where I’d be expected to drink as it just not worth the hangover for me. Now I’m older very little alcohol leads to a hangover.

Even with smoking, about 50% of smokers don't die of smoking and only about 1 in 10 die of lung cancer.

You can smoke or drink but in general- the more you do of it, the worse it is for the body (it's called a dose-response relationship). This also interacts with genetics, so some people get off scot-free with smoking and smoke til they are 90 and some people who are heavy drinkers are the same. In general, though, especially for cancer, the higher the level of drinking (in units) the more likely you are to get any given cancer. It's just one factor stacking your risk, and some people who have no obvious 'risk' factors may still get it.

That's why you can't just look about and say your friend who drinks a bottle a night will get liver disease. Some will, some won't, she's stacking her risk. People with very heavy drinking problems often drink spirits as well, or open the second bottle of wine, and I think for those people the risk of liver disease is much higher. I know two women who both have alcohol addiction and liver disease and cancer and they will both die in their 50's.

It is about moderation or very little drinking- one problem is people don't know what a low amount of drinking is- a couple of my friends drink enough to be slurred in their speech most nights but perceive themselves to be social drinkers. I am worried about them but accept it's their lives and it is their social life and thing they do in relationships so I see why it fits with their lifestyles.

We absolutely have a problem with binge drinking in this country, any centre of any city or town on a Friday or Saturday night will tell you that. Alcohol is also a factor in many cancers, we know this...

However, I'm curious about the actual evidence and stats surrounding this. I know a LOT of senior doctors and I'm not hearing about enormous numbers of younger people dying of liver disease (whereas the current mental health crisis is another matter).

Equally, I know a fair number of people who drink to excess, did so from their teens onwards - they now in their 40s/50s and still probably considered moderate to heavy drinkers in terms of recommended weekly units. None of them have liver disease (so far!). The only person I know who died of cirrhosis (in his early 70s) was a friend's father. He was a raging alcoholic - think morning drinking and hours in the pub every single day.

Of course, this is anecdotal, but I wonder if there are other medical factors that might make a younger person more prone to developing liver disease? This aligns with @Treeper22 's point.

But if it helps one person, like the OP have a lightbulb moment, isn’t the programme worth it? Of course one show isn’t the answer to the issues around alcohol in this country. We do have pretty good alcohol services I think, but yes MH services and social support is lacking. But I think the programme still has an important message which might reach some people.

There is a cultural problem in the UK, I think.

When my husband died, it was during lockdown so I was left totally on my own apart from phone calls. (I was in a "sort of" bubble with a cousin who drove me to the funeral home when I had to sign the invoice for the funeral costs, but that was all - he and his wife were already in a bubble with their daughter, a single mum. The rules allowed for emergency situations, but no one seemed to have absolutely clear guidance.)

Looking back, I'm amazed at the number of people who advised me to cope by drinking. Not the best idea.

Hardly comparable to the proven dangers of alcohol. My sister died at 50 as a result of alcohol dependency so I have seen first hand exactly what damage it can do to people. Getting drunk regularly is certainly not glamorous or pretty and it is a scourge on our society. Regularly infecting the human body with any type of poison such as alcohol, nicotine or illegal drugs is dangerous and all completely self inflicted.

the panorama documentary was a good opportunity of bringing this problem into the public domain. Fortunately I have ne er been much of a drinker - I simply don’t like the taste of it and my 3 kids seem to be the same as me. After watching their auntie die in such a terrible way, I believed that enforced their beliefs in the dangers and prevented them from getting into bad habits. Nobody needs alcohol to relax or enjoy themselves - it’s a poison which the body does not need.

You can have a great time without binge drinking you know?

Early stage liver disease doesn't have any symptoms though, and it's pretty slow developing in general - so it stands to reason that not many young people have it (or realise they have it). The liver can withstand a fair amount of abuse from us before it starts having problems.

By the time someone goes to the doctor with symptoms, they already have scarring and permanent damage.

https://britishlivertrust.org.uk/information-and-support/liver-health-2/symptoms-of-liver-disease/

They already are! Any thread about drinking on MN always fills up quickly with 'em.

The positive was that the woman managed to get her liver back to very healthy after 10 months abstinence. It’s definitely seen as the norm for women to drink as much as men but we can’t ! I did dry Jan a few years ago and since then only drink at weekends but I’ve been gradually reducing how much too. Was good to get a reminder in the run up to Christmas. Very timely.