Did anybody see the Panaroma about binge drinking last night?

[Orangelight23]

Real eye opener for me. Women in their 30s being diagnosed with liver disease. I must admit I have myself been drawn into wine culture and drinking wine to relax.

It's made me have a real think about my alcohol intake to be honest.

I think that's the problem with any discussion of alcohol on MN. It's completely divided from one extreme to the other. People who are talking about fairly extreme alcoholism and the horrible effects, it isn't really relevant to the documentary or discussion. We're taking about people who think 2/3/even 4 bottles of wine per week (thats me) is moderate drinking (which if you have any tolerance is easy to consume), and probably don't notice the effect on their health. Many will get away with this type of drinking for years, and some won't as evidenced by the report (although I do take it with a slight pinch of salt as it's selfie reported and clearly the journalist wants a documentary topic) There are a lot of professional women..stressful jobs, juggling kids and everything else who are falling in to this trap. In my circle at least it's really a class thing. I've noticed more middle class women drink A LOT more regularly. They probably are a lot healthier in general though (diet, exercise) so maybe that's how they get away with the consumption.

I gave up my two glasses of wine a night, as a blood test scared me. I was heading towards liver damage at the age of 49.

I've now been alcohol free for 3 months and feel great. Interestingly, my facial skin is much clearer and I look younger. I will treat myself to a glass or two on Christmas Day but otherwise happy to stick to low-alcohol beer and and elderberry juice.

But the minute you lay out the cold facts of drinking, people always think there's a moral judgement and someone's going to take their bottle away...

completely agree @Compash this defensive attitude happens on a lot of threads about the realities of alcohol, none believes that they will ever be a statistic, but someone has to be and it’s not always who you suspect, ie the alcoholic in the gutter, it can and often is those who don’t think they drink that much.

If the severe alcoholism and it's impacts were prevalent alcohol would have been made illegal by parliament some time ago in much the same way as heroine. Though having known alcoholics myself and the utter hear wrenching despair of watching an addict destroy themselves as cannot use project fear as a means to stop people drinking.

The majority of drinkers will be in reality fairly moderate and it is in this area where the debate lies. There are obviously health implications of drinking alcohol but does that necessarily mean we have a virtuous push to lead lives of abstaining entirely?

It does seem quite puritan to push abstinence and I often feel this has goes perhaps to religion where in some cases not drinking alcohol is viewed as avoiding a sin or temptation.

It would be a healthier but I actually think a little bit duller world without alcohol.

I think this is peak booze culture though. Everyone thinks everyone is at it until they realise they aren't and that even if everyone else is doing it doesn't take away the risks.

I think it is scary that over 60% of overweight people have non alcoholic fatty liver disease without even knowing it and this rises to 75% of diabetics and 90% of the obese. Even children are now being diagnosed with it.

The problem is that while many people can tolerate 2-3 bottles a week in their thirties or even forties, if they carry that habit into their 50's and beyond, they may well end up like the "extremes" you say people are talking about.

MN has a weird view that alcoholics are pissed up men drinking out of paper bags on a park bench at 6am, or women who are stumbling around in their dressing gowns necking vodka mid-morning. The reality is that many alcoholics manage to hold down jobs, raise families and look very, very normal.

@CrispWinterSunshineBright

If you read the weightloss threads you'll know that they are frequently hijacked by concerned posters regarding the safety of the drugs. I've yet to read a concerned comment by a obese person. Sadly when one digs a bit it appears the posters work in the diet industry.
FWIW I've tried the WLD, they made me ill.

I can't comment of botox as I have never used it although I work in beauty. I personally don't like the 'look'.

It would be a healthier but I actually think a little bit duller world without alcohol.

But that's only because you don't know a world without alcohol, surely?

i was married to someone who drank 2-3 cans of lager a night, more on weekends.

I grew up around parents that had maybe a glass of Bacardi and coke on a saturday, dad would go to the pub on a tuesday and friday too, and have a couple of pints.

I barely drink, I maybe have a single can of cider once every couple of months, i think i mostly drink over christmas where i allow myself to enjoy a bottle of Moscato over a couple of nights

I don't' get the need to drink 2-3 bottles of wine a week to relax.. i think its a waste of money and too many calories.

I think maybe ‘health’ messaging might need to be focused on looks instead of health. As we can see from this thread, people going to denial when they have to think about liver disease or cancer.

I’m in my 50s and it is definitely the heavy drinkers amongst us who are ageing worse. Blotchy skin, prominent blood vessels etc. It’s great if they don’t care about looks of course. However, I know many people want to stay good looking as they get older and have Botox etc. Heavy drinking can make some people look older and I’m not sure everybody knows that.

Many people have fun without needing to drink. It seems impossible to those who equate a good night with drinking alcohol. It’s deeply entrenched.

By duller I mean a slightly more regimented society which we seem to reject. I think there is the notion of alcohol being associated with liberal societies that could be reflected in e.g. prohibition in the US didn't work out.

I don't think you can argue alcohol is healthy but don't we have to put into the perspective that the world is full of unhealthy activities and some people do find alcohol in moderation a pleasure.

I drink too. But you are massively increasing your risks of multiple cancers with that level of consumption. And if you watch the documentary the point is many with liver issues don’t have any symptoms until they’re near death.

From what I've seen, my friends have gone three ways. Those who either never drank or have quit towards mid-life, those who drink on nights out and the odd time at home but seem very stable, and those that were in the middle group but now appear to be drinking quite heavily, most nights, and in higher quantities than before. It's those last group I'm worried about on a personal level as they are my friends and they look older and iller than others the same age now (I haven't included people who are known to have alcohol use disorders).

Knowledge about alcohol has changed since we started drinking, it used to be considered heart-healthy (the jury is now out), people used to drink at lunchtime at work, but we know more now about the links with other diseases, and also fetal alcohol syndrome which is more prevalent than we thought as well.

There are people who need to come up with stories of why they aren't drinking at events if they are pregnant, others find it hard to stop when pregnant, then look around the streets on an evening after a night out, and how many bottles or cans are in people's bins

And people think there is no drinking issues?

I'm French and I've always drink one or two glasses of wine with meals (mainly for supper). For a nice dinner with a friend, we might even get to consume two bottles of wine, if we feel like it. I do think a lot of this is cultural and the fashion now is for a Neo-puritanical mindset.

I come from a family of heavy drinkers, most of which have lived into their 90s. But most of my family are very active. I wonder if there isn't a secondary factor involved like drinking + inactive lifestyle?

I’m a doctor. You can have normal liver results on bloods and still have liver damage.

But if you’re drinking several days a week, that’s not ‘occasional’. That’s frequently and regular.

Just to highlight that the tactics that the tobacco industry used to minimise the perceived risks of smoking are now being used wholesale by the alcohol industry. Drink Aware is funded by the alcohol industry, raft of papers out there about what they do. https://www.jsad.com/doi/10.15288/jsad.2020.81.392

I think it's all about informed choice and by informed stating risk in an unbiased way. If drinking alcohol increases the chance of getting a cancer from 0.01% to 0.015% it is a distraction to call this a 1.5 times increase in getting cancer; the absolute risks may still be low.

I am certainly not calling drinking alcohol empowering but there is an undercurrent of women drinking being unfeminine and demeaning for women that smacks of patriarchy. The WHO caused controversy sa ting the safe level of alchol consumption for fertile women was zero as there was a theoretical potential of pregnancy at any point. The advice was widely denounced by many women as illiberal making women feel guilty as the bearers of children of having the temerity of drinking. I do not wish to trivialize feral alcohol syndrome which is awful but it again seems like fear is being used to limit women's consumption of alcohol and some do object to this.

We need to make sure alcohol awareness is responsible for both sexes and not ever into territory where women are specifically stigmatised.

I wonder if it's also increasing due to the absolute shit that the industry passes off as an alcohol drink.
'Wicked', 'sourz' and various other concoctions of absolute shit.

Seriously - I'm pretty sure a glass of regular wine or beer doesn't fuck your liver up as much as a jagerbomb.

No. I'm not the poster you're replying to, I'm the restrained alcoholic. I wouldn't have gone to the extra trouble of learning to drink moderately if I didn't feel a continued benefit from it. Alcohol adds a bit of colour and sparkle for me, it makes my very dull existence feel bright for a few hours.

About twice a year, I go 'out' out and get drunk. I still love it; I like the warmly happy feeling it gives me, the sense of goodwill to the world, the easy laughter. I don't like the hangover (I have other health problems now, making recovery slow) and I do know it's coming. To me, it's worth paying the price for the enjoyable experience.

Comments like yours come across as supercilious. Some people don't have a happy experience with alcohol, some pay too high a price for it, some hate losing control. They'd unquestionably be better off sober, as would those who can't cope without drinking. But please don't assume every drinker's some sort of useless loser who's never tried going alcohol-free! We all try to balance our choices according to our individual situations.

I am watching this now! It’s quite shocking. I hate wine and we dont drink at all at home for different reasons (alcoholics in wider family, general health, weight loss etc etc) and neither me nor DH care for drinking particularly. But it was still shocking the rates of liver disease in young women! No amount of alcohol is good for people end of. It’s really not worth the health risks, the general lifestyle choices, the crappy sleep, the extra calories. I’ve not bought any in our food shops since Covid and life’s been so much more pleasant all round.

Drink aware is funded by (donations from) the alcohol (and other) industries however it is wrong to interpret this as an act of covert promotion or believe that this should lead to a lack of trust in its effectiveness or accuracy. It is correct and basic and specifically designed to be so.