To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

@DoreenonTill8 - yes unfortunately I can. But they accuse parents of 'gentle parenting' yet they do the same. It's a cop out but I honestly don't know what the answer is. Smaller class sizes would help.

@TheSilentSister

Most schools have a behaviour policy. This will state something along the lines that if the child does X you need to respond with Y.

Teachers are expected to stick to the behaviour policy and it would be a disciplinary matter if they did not.

So in most schools you are not allowed to shout at students or slam the door or desks or make them stand at the back.

You have to stick to the behaviour policy.

I have heard other parents complain that teachers are not strict enough. One Jamaican parent said that it was a pity teachers were no longer allowed to hit students as if we gave his boy a good hiding he'd soon behave himself.

Just like when people who work in customer service have a script to follow and cannot escalate to a manager unless x y and z has happened, teachers have exactly the same sort of rules.

If you want a school where teachers are allowed to shout at your child and properly tell him off you may need to go abroad. They don't exist in the U.K.

(I might add that not doing his work is not a "petty" problem...)

Behaviours affecting your children's learning as they either distract others, disrupt the flow, are dangerous behaviours or cause havoc...

No equipment, swinging on chairs, turning around, shouting out, doubling down (continuing to talk out of turn), ignoring teacher entirely, refusal to write, making stupid sounds (siuuu, beeping, bogies, porn moaning) throwing things (spitballs, rubbers, paper, planes, pens, sharpeners), goading each other, disablist/homophobic/racist language, answering back when reprimanded.

As a teacher, you're supposed to run the room and think of many of the above as "low-level" disruption.
But all the above are interruptions.
Some might be deemed easy fixes (being a walking WHSmith I am buying these pens out my own money and I'm on a support staff grade) others are meant to be verbal warning and done, or choosing to glare non-verbally/gently reprimand/purposely ignore the more benign for the dysregulated (I think this is the worst approach as it dilutes the sanctions system in place).
But look at the above list and multiply it by six students per mixed ability class, five lessons a day, five days a week and you'll see why your child complains about their lessons being interrupted all the time. It's frustrating for everybody.

ASD is no excuse. As a general rule, children on the autistic spectrum are more likely to be respectful and well-behaved.

And here lies the problem - "as a general rule" should not apply to anyone with ASD - it's a spectrum! My DC is lovely at home. It's at school he becomes 'disruptive'.

The opposite of gentle parenting isn't to shout or slam things. I am not, by any means, a gentle parent. My kids learned to behave by watching my behaviour, hearing the word 'no' a lot and me having strict, consistent boundaries.

Dh had a shiuty, authoritarian parent. He didn't behave in school at times, but he certainly wasn't scared of shouting ir aggressive teachers, because he already had that at home.

Many of the kids who disrupt are waiting for their teachers to explode, because that's what they're comfortable with. Calm and rational blows their minds.

Pass marks in the higher maths for grade 4 have hovered around 26 percent. Again, this is psychologically damaging.

Oh behave! Have you even seen a GCSE maths paper??! You'd have to be pretty dim not to get 26%.
You actually need 26 ish percent to pass the higher paper, and about 50% to pass the lower paper

To put this in context, you could easily (and I mean easily) get 90% on the lower paper in Year 6. It's the same maths. So if you're only getting 50% you've basically paid zero attention since primary school. How is that anything other than the own young person's fault?! There are literally YouTube channels devoted to telling you how to pass.

And as for this, I'd be beyond furious if my ASD/ADHD child did this. What are the consequences you've set in place for this? If he can behave at home, he can certainly behave at school. I'd be blazing.

It's supposed to be the other way round if you've brought them up to respect teachers.

I'd say the reasons are for mainly petty things, forgetting a pencil, not having a shirt tucked in, laughing, talking, not paying attention, not enough work

Equipment - wouldn't carry a point where I am but would be noted.
But we are then equipping your son - why aren't you? Where are his spares?
Shirt - would be easily rectified. Do it all the time.
Laughing - if at a fart, I'd be relatively zen but they can take it too far.
The last three aren't petty
Not paying attention usually means they're doing some of the above behaviours in my last post, talking impacts others and not enough work - that will be down to the lack of focus/talking and it will affect others' ability to learn.
They're there to learn. They're there to work.
If three strikes = reflect/isolation/BSU then they need to shut up in class, get in, get on.

If you deem those behaviours to be petty, then you're part of the problem.
And I have a son on the spectrum.

My question is - where has the discipline gone? In my day teachers commanded respect - they'd shout, slam the desk, make you stand at the back for 5 mins..

Are you kidding? Can you imagine the complaints?

Honestly , you sound like a nightmare parent. Sort your child out. He knows you don't give a shit if he misbehaves at school. You've caused that. Not the teachers.

Parents want schools to be super strict when their child is being affected but when their child is the one causing trouble, they want schools to be laissez faire.

Hey presto, schools can’t teach the kids because the parents won’t let them discipline them.

I taught abroad and would never teach her - so many parents are entitled and dreadful.

A teacher's job is to teach.
Disruptive children should be removed, and that's that.

The details/causes of disruption are not the teacher's concern. They are simply following the system. What happens to the child long term according to the needs is not the teacher's concern.
Here lies the problem, because SLT don't know what to do either, so they throw the responsibility back on the teacher and the child is back in the lesson disrupting as normal.

The system is a complete mess.

It would appear the schools are undermining themselves by going out of their way to antagonize students and parents over things that have nothing to do with their educational mission. It’s especially important to do this on the very first day of classes, and to harp on the most minute deviations, in order to sow resentment quickly.

Then, having begun your relationship with that student/family with a show of petty meanness, you can then act surprised when the parents refuse to “support the school” on issues that actually matter.

@KillerTomato7 you might not actually have as many 'issues that matters' if parents support the school in the first place, and stop complaining about petty things like uniform. Your child hears you, they see you complaining and unhappy with the school, so they don't respect the school or teachers either, therefore if your child misbehaves you've got a good excuse for it haven't you? Oh well the school is shit anyway, no wonder my child misbehaves because of all the stupid rules.
Please.

If this unhinged show of hostility over a single sentence reflects your typical attitude towards students and parents, it’s an absolute wonder that they don’t respect you. Honestly, it’s inexplicable.

I'm not a teacher but am a parent of twins who have been through a good comprehensive and also sixth form college. They both preferred college massively as they felt they were treated more like individuals...I am sure this is because of class sizes and also the fact they were studying subjects which they enjoyed.

I went to a single sex grammar school in the 90s and my experience was SO different to how secondary school seems to be now. For example, homework....set online and often not even related to anything they have done in class...plus far too much of it. When are kids supposed to have down time? Like I say I went to a grammar school and had nothing like this much homework. I believe this is the result of a ridiculously strict and unrealistic curriculum that can't be fitted in in school time so I have major sympathy for the teachers but it causes huge issues at home and my husband and I are both degree educated but we really struggled.

I also feel that due to special schools being closed (thanks to Blair) we now have a large number of problematic kids in mainstream school and I think this takes up so much energy there is little time left for the kids who actually behave well so in the end they play up, too.

I also believe that single sex lessons would be beneficial. Much of the problem is the sexes trying to impress eachother by fooling around, but also boys and girls learn in different ways and enjoy different things.

I also massively agree that we need way more focus on vocational subjects. We make non-academic kids feel stupid ..like my son who is now doing a high profile engineering apprenticeship which he had to go through an intensive selection process for....he is far from stupid.

I also think we should adopt the pass/fail the year system and kids should have to repeat years. They need to be given responsibility for their own success so that their behaviour has a direct consequence on them.

Those are my thoughts anyway, from my experience.

All the stuff matters, that's the point. When you go to school you agree to the rules. If students learn that parents will back them not following the "small" rules, then the students stop following the big ones.

With 30 years of teaching experience and having taught many pupils on the autistic spectrum, I can say with authority that AS A GENERAL RULE with a very few exceptions, ASD pupils tend to be more willing to follow rules and be respectful. Your DS is obviously an exception to the rule.

They’re not going to “support the school in the first place” if the first impression the staff gives is that they are petty, vindictive bureaucrats out to punish their child for the slightest misstep.

For people who talk more about respect than almost anyone else, you seem to have very little notion of actually earning that respect. Also, if you want to convince people that schools are starved of staff and resources — which indeed they are — it’s counterproductive to give the impression that you have ample time and energy to haul students up for the wrong color sock.

Left primary teaching many years ago, but it seemed even then that parents felt if they failed to accept how their children misbehaved they wouldn’t have to do something about it. Add Teaching staff and SLT feeling powerless to do anything meaningful about anything but absolutely unacceptable behaviour (heaven forfend a child should be nervous of incurring a teacher’s wrath) and you have what we have now, the inmates taking over the asylum. I expect someone will find that old phrase offensive too.

Assuming PP confused permissive parenting with gentle parenting … GP has clear expectations of boundaries and respect.

not a criticism of PP because I think it’s easy for parents to unwittingly slip into permissive parenting when trying to GP so they are saying they GP when, in fact, they arent …. And even those with the best intentions who genuinely are doing their best, are human and have their moment (myself includedh

DH works in secondary state, and what seems to be apparent is that it’s the lack of consequences and entitled parents that are contributors to the problem of bad behaviour in school.not course this is secondary information he’s give me, not first hand, but with nearly every secondary school age child having a smart phone, they can just text mum or dad that the teacher was mean and then the parents ring the school up and it’s a shit show. When I was at school I’m pretty sure the majority of us just got on with it and took the teachers word as an authoritative final word.

Anyway, I haven’t read the whole thread but I’m sure there’ll be people blaming SEN kids. From what DH tells me, most of what you could call bad behaviour is coming from those without SEN.

Thank you for genuinely wanting to know what should be done 😊. Personally there are numerous factors not all can be tackled as it’s a society thing. Here are my thoughts :

reasons for increasing disruptive behaviour:

parents and children viewing teaching as less of a respectable profession so feel qualified to question teachers actions ( this is a society view) I think in the age of everyone going to uni , teachers are not put on a pedestal anymore. As everyone thinks they know how to teach as they have a degree.

post Covid- a different attitude to education emerged- parents seeing it as not the end of the world if children take time off. Lots of absence means when they are in the classroom they don’t know what’s going on and can be disruptive.

SEND- moving into mainstream school has been a disaster as the promised funding didn’t happen, when your a teacher and have 30 kids you can’t give one to one support and with the best will in the world TA’s are not experts/ trained on all SEND needs.,

lack of punishment- detentions for some children are water off a ducks back- if after school they won’t turn up and then the parent won’t support it and then they just end up going to another school eventually and the cycle repeats itself.

a lot of exam pressure on kids with the over filled exam specifications since 2016, breaks some children or causes them to disengage.

social media- paints the picture you can do whatever you want in the world not necessarily with hard graft attached.,

there’s probably more but I can’t think of them!

This is my daughter - autistic / communication disorder / cerebral palsy, comes from a “ gentle parenting “ single parent family
and she is the least likely child to be any sort of trouble, she is a complete rule follower and she can not handle getting in any sort of trouble - at school. The ones in her class that cause the trouble done come from gentle parents 🤣 they come from parents just as shouty as they are !

When I first started teaching 15 years ago, I never had a pupil truant a lesson. It just didn’t happen.
Now we have groups of pupils refusing to go to lessons every single lesson. Roaming the corridor, causing disruption, thinking they rule the roost. Some of their parents refuse to answer the phone to the school.
I am also taken aback by how many “fiddle toys” pupils need these days. I taught a yr 7 class on Friday and over 50% were not listening or engaging with a thing but instead playing on their toys. In the end I took them all away, but I await the inevitable complaints that I was disablist.
The minority of pupils that just have no consequences and that the school can’t permanently exclude is so impactful on each class, it makes it impossible.

Most children are lovely but those that are not ruin it for everyone.