To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

Parenting has gone horribly wrong in this country. You only have to look on this forum to see the amount of parents moaning about school rules and excusing poor behaviour because their child has SEN. If anyone dares to suggest that poor parenting is rife and that not all kids have SEN (and even if they do, they still need to be parented), you are shot down as if you are the most evil person on earth.

I am so glad I left teaching. Nothing in the world would persuade me to go back to that.

Exactly.

Not to mention the Daily Mail Sad Faces from parents complaining that their child has been sent home due to an inability to follow school dress code.
So many girls in other countries would wear ANYTHING to be able to access a good, free education but Chantal is traumatised by being asked to wear shoe she can actually walk in and pull her bloody skirt out of her arse!

I’ve taught in inner and outer London secondary schools on and off for over 20 years, interspersed with other jobs in youth work/safeguarding etc. I’ve finally left the profession this year, as poor behaviour is so prevalent.

I spent the last 4 years teaching in a school rated “Good” by OFSTED in a quite affluent middle-class area, but the catchment area also covers some very deprived local areas, so it was a real mix of students. When I phoned parents to report poor behaviour, some were very supportive but others were defensive/dismissive, tried to tell me how to do my job. (Some of the most arrogant, dismissive parents were the middle-class ones.) There was often little support from senior staff either, and consequences for poor behaviour not rigorously, fairly or consistently applied.

Over the years, I’ve been sworn at, called a ‘bitch’, told to “shut up” multiple times, had comments about my appearance/clothes, and had objects thrown at me, including pens, empty bottles, rubbers, sweets. I’ve been blocked from leaving a classroom by a huge 15 year old boy because I had confiscated his phone and refused to return it.

One of the final straws was when I was covering an A level class of students I didn’t know in a different subject. When I challenged constant chatter/messing about, one sixth-form boy called me a “f_ prick”. I called in the HOD who removed the boy but when I asked her later what had been done about it, she told me he had denied it and she found it hard to believe as he was an A* student. So he had no consequences and I was completely undermined.

Whilst all of these experiences were horrible and gradually wore me down to having to leave, the thing that distresses me most is the way that the kids who want to learn and do well get their learning disrupted EVERY DAY, and their enthusiasm knocked out of them through being bullied/ridiculed for being a ‘boffin’ and other insults. It made me so sad to see bright-eyed, keen Year 7s start school every year, only to have to moderate or mask their enthusiasm to avoid getting singled out by others.

Sorry this has all been so negative but that has been my experience over 20 years…

The wheels have been coming odd the education bus for many years.

Some years ago, the toilet in my department was set on fire by a Year 7 boy who had brought a lighter into school and lit a duster he found. The smell of smoke alerted us and the fact that the boy attempted to abscond through a window. Prevented from doing that, he tried to strangle me, then ran off, was stopped by the HT, who he peanutted and had to be restrained. The HT excluded him and he was reinstated by the governors.

I know full well that this child had a troubled home life, with a parent who cared not a jot about him. I know that the family were in trouble with their neighbours and I know that the boy was on the streets most of the time he was t in school. Nevertheless, he endangered staff and other students and had no investment in being in school or in learning.

It's very hard to be amenable to someone who has physically harmed you, as well as verbally abusing you at every opportunity.

Part of the reason I left teaching was because I was sick of the parents. They would march into my classroom every morning expecting me to drop everything and listen to them until 9:30. They had no awareness that I had a whole class of children to teach and that their expectations of my time impacted every single child in the class. I was shouted at and threatened by parents because I had the audacity to punish their children for their awful behaviour. I had ill children (who had been throwing up all night) dumped on me the next day and who then proceeded to throw up all over my classroom- this was disruptive and affected the education of every single child in the class, to me and to my poor TA who then had to clean up piles of vomit. The headteacher had an open door policy so the parents could enter the classroom at the start and end of the day so once they were in and in rant mode it was very difficult to get them out again. The headteacher, incidentally, made herself scarce every morning and afternoon so that she didn't have to deal with the open door policy. When I first started teaching I would only have the odd parent on the odd morning who would do this. Ten years later and I would have up to 8 parents each morning wanting to dominate my time and disrupt the calm as the children were coming in. The increase in the number of parents constantly coming in, making a fuss, complaining, wanting to spend ages talking about how wonderful their child was correlated with the increase in children demonstrating poor behaviour. Parents may not be single handedly responsible for behaviour issues in schools but they absolutely are a huge part of it.

The most worrying thing I think is that the current cohort of teens, with their poor mental health / SEND / poorer behaviour whilst they were born around the time of the 2008 recession had access to SureStart centres. They could have, if their parents accessed it, all the early years intervention they could possibly have wanted, DD and I went to groups everyday until she was three and it was fantastic.

If those children are struggling now then what on earth are the current Primary school children and younger going to be like that didn't have those things and experienced COVID at a very young age and experienced the CoL crisis, many families have been on their knees for a long time.

Yeah, right. Don't be daft.

I agree with what others have said about crap parenting being at the root of it.

However, I also think that the online and tv content kids are exposed to from a young age - and far too much time gormlessly staring at screens - is also partly to blame for a drop in standards of behaviour and a lack of social skills. Where some parents aren't doing their job properly there are kids, some younger and some teens, who are learning their 'social skills' from tiktok, Love Island and Eastenders, and barely looking up from their phones to actually speak to real humans unless they have to. Some of them are accessing porn. Their whole view of the world, the people in it, and the way it works is warped by this shit. And this is what you end up with.

My DH is a teacher at secondary and like pp's say it's a lack of respect, entitled behaviour and thinking that they shouldn't get consequences.

And all supported by their appalling breeders. Years ago teachers were told that punishments such as doing lines were 'demeaning' and 'pointless', but they were meant to be pointless, an intelligent person would see that the way to avoid lines was to behave. Teachers are meant to stand 'in loco parentis', luckily for many pupils they are actually far better than the parents they stand in place of. Tell the stroppy parents that their opinions on trivia are irrelevant, if you don't like the school then home school as you're such an expert, and let the majority who want to learn get on without you darling's disruptive behaviour.

Re the pens thing:

I personally as a teacher do not give a flying wotsit about uniform. If we had a crack down week (these were usually advertised well in advance so the kids and teacher knew) then I'd enforce the rules. Otherwise I didn't care.

But kids with no pen (and they often had nothing at all with them) was a problem.

My school for a while had a policy of giving out pens as needed. One lad I taught opened his bag and showed me nearly 400 or so -a whole rucksack full. The school used so so many pens.

So they stopped. Kids who were pupil premium would be given a pack at the start of the school year. If they lost if they could go to the PP Manager and she'd put in place e the same as we had for the send students - each teacher was given a clear exam pencil case with the kids name on and gave it out and got it back each lesson.

I still personally bought pencils (they are much harder to break than pens although a year 10 boy can destroy most things if he puts his mind to it) and lent them out. I got through a couple of boxes a term.

I found it easier to be honest because often the kind of kid who doesn't have a pen (or usually anything else) if you don't give them a pen and let them get involved in your lesson they will just be bored and then cause you more problems.

Some teens, not all teens, can and will exploit every hole in every policy.

The Head of the Primary at the through school I am involved with says that around 50% of the current R class has SN and a lot of these are "environmental".
A large number of these children will continue to need extra support and resources throughout their whole school lives.
The current Y7 who started school in Covid have a lot of issues too apparently

I don't think that schools encourage Tiktok and other such crap so it's back to the parents' lack of control.

I still personally bought pencils (they are much harder to break than pens although a year 10 boy can destroy most things if he puts his mind to it) and lent them out. I got through a couple of boxes a term.

I worked in a Forces school and there was one belligerent NCO who insisted that the school should provide everything for his son. The Head agreed, the boy was told to stand outside the Head's office before school started and he was issued with a pen etc that he signed for, at break he had to report to the Head's office to return it, both signing, at the end of break he came again to collect and sign for his stuff, etc all through the day. He lost an enormous amount of playtime, the Head sometimes was busy and the boy waited longer. After 2 days he came to school with pens etc!

Yes, the stuff I mentioned is definitely down to what parents are allowing at home. It affects the kids and then causes problems at school.

On the pen issue, all the pens I had to lend out in my classroom are gone. A girl asked to borrow a pen the other day and I said no, I didn't have any pens but she could have a pencil.

She sneered at the pencil and said that she wasn't going to write in pencil so I suggested that refusing to do the work would result in isolation. She said that if I gave her a pen she would do the work. I suggested that if she were so desperate to write in pen she might consider bringing a pen in.

Endlessly giving out pens out to kids who don't have pens doesn't do anything apart from create kids who don't think they have to take any responsibility for their own education. The good kid who genuinely forgets a pen as a one-off is usually the kind of kid who borrows one from a friend.

During covid, when we were not allowed to lend out pens it was noticeable that more kids actually brought pens to school.

The increase in the number of parents constantly coming in, making a fuss, complaining, wanting to spend ages talking about how wonderful their child was correlated with the increase in children demonstrating poor behaviour.
Parents need to be told that if they wish to consult with a teacher they should phone in to make an appointment, as they would for other professionals. If it is deemed urgent then the SLT can deal with it.
No parent should be able to trot into school for any reason beyond the Office, it's a matter of security.

I absolutely agree with everything you’ve said. If I could make one quick change, I’d massively cut the GCSE content and if I could make one more complex change I’d bring back a wider range of educational settings (selective/academic tracks, vocational tracks, SEN units, APs) within one school if that’s more palatable for the inclusion advocates. Even in the selective school I work in, where many students do come out with a raft of 8s and 9s, the GCSEs kill much of the joy and love of learning because they’re such a slog.

My DC’s teachers are shocked when we are supportive of them, which is incredibly sad

We once had to go into the city on the 3.30 bus. The next day I phoned the school at about 4pm and the Head answered, when I said I'd been on the 3.30 bus he immediately said Oh God, what have they done now??? When I said that I was calling to tell him how well behaved they'd been, chatty and noisy but nothing worse he was astounded, no-one ever had a good thing to say about his pupils! It's a sad state of affairs that he should be so surprised, only expecting negative things, when I'm sure that the reality is they are no worse behaved on the bus than pupils have ever been. 40 years ago our neighbour who drove buses said he would rather miss a shift than do the school bus.

Years and years and years ago - I left secondary teaching 10 years ago and this was many years before that - my classroom was used as a room for eating packed lunches. It was left in such a state that I tried to get in there five minutes before the end of lunch to sweep the floor and empty my little waste paper bin into a big bin and put a bin liner in. If I didn't, the kids used to refuse to work in it and told me I was a scruffy for having such a shit room - you can imagine the extra stress etc!

Anyway one day one of the worst miscreants came in whilst I was sweeping, I said to him - cheerily - won't be a mo, we don't want to sit in this mess do we? He asked if he could help and was really happy to sweep everything up while I emptied the bin and wiped some tables. He wanted to know if there were other rooms he could go and sweep! He often came early to Tuesday's lessons after that to do some sweeping. I can only think he really wanted to do something physical and practical. It showed me a different side to him (although he still had his moments after that). There are some kids who need to be up and doing.

Otherwise I totally agree with what everyone has said about parenting, weak management, lack of respect, lack of MH services, poverty. As I say, I left a decade ago, it was bad enough then and from what I hear (not just on here) it has only got worse since.

As a parent I know a few other parents who can't see anything wrong in what their child does. One has two kids who are in the same years as my two kids (yr 10 and yr8) she is constantly moaning about how the school "give out behaviour points like sweets" and that her son's have loads for absolutely ridiculous things, her youngest is constantly walking out of classrooms, talking back to teachers, picking on other kids and she's been told he will be temporarily moved to another school if his behaviour doesn't improve. But despite this she thinks her son is being picked on by the teachers. She seems to forget my daughter is in all the same lessons and has had no behaviour points and is constantly complaining to me about how disruptive this boy is and how he stops everyone else from learning. It's this sort of parental attitude that makes teaching impossible nowadays.

I have a DS who has ASD and in mainstream school. He does well academically so school have never been interested in his diagnosis.
He is beautifully mannered at home and when I'm out and about with him - so much so that people comment. He is loving and kind.
He gets to school and that's when the negative starts. He is often in detention or Hub due to disruptive behaviour. They get a bad mark 3 times and get sent to the Hub. I'd say the reasons are for mainly petty things, forgetting a pencil, not having a shirt tucked in, laughing, talking, not paying attention, not enough work.
More often than not, he's not the only child in that class getting detentions/Hub.

My question is - where has the discipline gone? In my day teachers commanded respect - they'd shout, slam the desk, make you stand at the back for 5 mins. Being given detention/Hub is lazy discipline - it's no discipline at all really. All their doing is making a child late home, make them miss a day of education (Hub).

I'm certainly not saying my DC is an Angel but I command respect at home. All I can do is listen to the teachers on the phone telling me of his latest 'crime' and agree it's not acceptable. I berate my DS when he gets home. Sometimes but not always I set my own 'punishments', which he accepts with good grace. But forgive me for not agreeing that him laughing because his mate farted in class is a crime. Apparently he laughed the longest and loudest - despite many others laughing. Sorry teacher, I had to tell you that was petty.

So, in my experience, it's not the home life/parents that are always the problem - it's the schools inadequate discipline - which no doubt is not the teachers fault, but the system.

Exactly this, some parents need to start parenting.

Also, children are expected to learn too much too quickly, the curriculum needs streamlining massively.

My question is - where has the discipline gone? In my day teachers commanded respect - they'd shout, slam the desk, make you stand at the back for 5 mins
Can you imagine the furore if a teacher did that?!!
Shout-TRAUMA!!
Slamming the desk?!- TRAUMA!!
Stand at the back?! Singled the child out, who now has PTSD!

We are not allowed to shout, slam a desk or ridicule pupils. Fear is not a good motivator to learn! Your DS is obviously choosing to behave this way, and you are choosing to blame his teachers. ASD is no excuse. As a general rule, children on the autistic spectrum are more likely to be respectful and well-behaved.