To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

This is interesting about vocational courses - we have a technical college (y10-13) near us which focuses on STEM subjects. Parents are wary as they feel it will attract naughty kids, but staff I know who work there say behaviour is pretty good as a lot of less academic kids are actually enjoying school for the first time.

TeacherTapp asks this question a lot and most teacher do agree behaviour is one of the biggest issues in their school.

Some think behaviour is better because of all the tick box systems and reliance on the spreadsheet. Statistically it has if you measure a school on exclusions and schools stop excluding.

What has stopped is the silly low level classroom mob stuff like making a silly noise which gets passed around, passing notes, old school stuff. The general misogynistic boy pupil stuff is basically the same but emboldened by negative role models. The number of students (including a rising number of girls) with complex needs and very challenging behaviour has increased.

Why don't you like them in your lessons?
Fair point about there being no TAs in schools in the 90s. Do you think there has been an increase of SEN children?

I agree with this. I went to school in the 70s and 80s. My primary school was a bit rough, but this was an absolute given in how we were all brought up respect adults, accept boundaries and do as they’re told. We all knew not to answer back.

In agreement that a significant part is parenting. I don't think it's entirely softlysoftly parenting, quite a bit is very erratic parenting, which I find does lead to more of the testing behavours, and a significant part is social media and other internet access doing the parenting.

Another part is policies (and in my experience especially academy trust policies) that are about ten years behind and are more about appearances and ticking all the boxes for OFSTED than sorting anything out.

For example, the anti-bullying policy has every -ist type of bullying one can think of and each type is recorded separately for tracking/because OFSTED likes to see that it's being tracked - but a major issue in some years group is what I can only call "perceived social justice' bullying, which is typically only tracked as 'interpersonal conflict'.

So, we'll have students do things like ask someone how to say or spell the word black in Spanish (a language taught at the school), that leads to the child who responds being called racist, especially if they're perceived as White which leads to harassment and physical attacks even in class that the perpetrators justify with "well, they're racist, so its okay," when actually it was just one of the native Spanish speakers or a child who who did Spanish at primary who thought they were being helpful. We're all aware this is fuelled by social media, that snapchat and similar are largely the ones teaching this, not parents directly, but when 11 year olds are doing these, there does come questioning of why parents allow their kids on platforms they're not even meant to be on and is creating this disruptions. That we're having to basically tell the helpful kids "don't respond to questions about colours from your peers" and similar rather than really dealing with the issue is beyond frustrating, but it has lowered disruption (until they get accusations that not responding to questions makes someone whatever -ist, that happens too though tends to not get as disruptive).

Can we update the policy or the tracking? No, that's under the trust's decisions.

I wouldn't say it's simply a culture thing or a cultural thing of one particular group (there is no singular White English culture), but cultures and values clashing while being hamstrung by lack of wider support and fiddly systems and policies that sound nice, but do little but tickboxes.

QED

What do they do differently at your DDs school?

So, aside from a complete change in societal/parent attitudes, which it's hard to imagine how to change...

• Management with teaching experience who back up and support teachers.
• Ability for teachers to use meaningful sanctions
• Ability for teachers to remove misbehaving students from class
• Ability for schools to suspend/expel persistently misbehaving students
• Smaller schools
• Smaller class sizes
• More TAs
• More SEN schools/alternative provision for children who need it
• Less curriculum/exam pressure
• More vocational courses available
• More funding for schools in general

Plus more government funding for services that support families in crisis, mental health services, social services, police...

(I wonder whether the new government will make any changes that help with any of this!)

I teach in a secondary school where the behaviour is good. I can't remember the last time I was sworn at and no-one has ever thrown a chair. However, there is constant disruption because;
I need a pen
I don't have my book
I need to go outside for a drink
Can I go to the toilet
He took my pencil case
Can I go to the safe haven room?
I need a paracetamol
I forgot my homework
Can I move seats?
I have a lamda class
He's staring at me
Tell her to stop that
Can you put the blinds down?
Can I borrow a green pen
I didn't get a sheet
What's my log in details?
Can I fill up my water bottle?
I can't see

Etc etc etc

Parents and students don't realise how disruptive it is to be disorganised.

I work in a nice suburban school. It’s a comprehensive so obviously still plenty of poor behaviour.

An American parent once said to me in disbelief; how do you get the respect needed from students and parents when the government don’t let you provide any of the grade yourself? And he had a good point; the removal of coursework and all parts of gcse that teacher gave the grade for was a move to undermine the authority of teachers and makes the job harder. I see why it it’s potentially problematic, but many students don’t feel they ‘need’ you now-they feel they can get what they need from YouTube in June while cramming (not true but it’s a battle to fight!)

I think having a government hostile to teachers over the last 14 years has made it harder. Other things that have made behaviour worse include:

Lack of SEN support and resources, even falling apart buildings and clear poverty in schools has made it harder for school to seem fun and exciting and has subtly transmitted to kids that society doesn’t care that much about what goes on in schools.

A very academic curriculum that is totally inappropriate and demoralising for swathes of pupils.

Mobile phones making it easier for students to be influenced by people who don’t love them/have their best interests at heart.

Time poor, stressed parents who don’t have the mental space/support to provide what is needed to be successful in school (structure, sleep, good food, help when needed, engagement in homework etc etc) I’m not judging, I’m a time poor stressed parent myself!

Closure of PRUs and the pressure to keep students who can’t cope and influence the behaviour of others.

Also, hear me out…school sites used to be open. Safeguarding is massively improved since the 90s when I was at school, it is a huge win that is not celebrated enough. But kids are now locked into schools. The ones who would have wondered out at break having fallen out with someone p2 are now on site, causing issues all day! Where we once bunked off, they now truant on site-taking up staff resources and disrupting lessons. Not saying this is wrong, just that it is a consequence of the changed culture.

I'm not a teacher, but am a parent and am reading through this thread just horrified at what teachers have to put up with. I grew up abroad. Where I'm from, we have a huge respect for education and we were expected to follow school rules, have good manners and behaviour in school (and out of school). We didn't have to clean the school, but did have to tidy and keep our classrooms/school areas neat (or no break times). My DP wouldn't stand for bad behaviour or disrespect, and heaven help us if a teacher spoke to them about us in anything but a good light. Our schools were strict but we knew where we stood, and knew not to push any boundaries or break rules.

I have taught my DC similar to what my parents taught me: good manners, respect (for education, for rules and for others). I've told the teachers that educate my DC that I expect to be told if there is any bad behaviour from my DC, and that I would back any sanctions that they give. Hopefully that keeps my DC on a good path, and lets the teachers know that I won't stand for any nonsense from my DC. So far, this has worked!!

We certainly didn’t have TAs in our secondary school.
However there clearly was a need for them because what actually happened was that sixth formers were encouraged to volunteer to help struggling students further down the school. Some of us were asked to give up a free period to help support a child in a lesson. I gave up two frees a week to help with homework with two kids who didn’t attend German lessons (we did two languages and it was felt they would be better off concentrating on one). They came to me for an hour and we would go over a piece or two of homework. Most of my friends volunteered. Essentially a TA job done by good natured willing sixth formers. I
left school in 1995.

I find them talking to students a bit disruptive if we’re trying to work on something quietly. And I just don’t find them helpful. That’s not a reflection on them as people, it’s the role.

Not all schools have sixth forms. So it certainly wasn’t the case that this was standard.

Well who do you blame then? All this gentle parenting crap is producing generations of ill disciplined, entitled, spoilt brats.

Only if you fundamentally misunderstand what it means.

It doesn't mean that you have to accept poor behaviour or are not supposed to apply firm boundaries.

It means that if you can work out the reason for the behaviour you are seeing, or talk to the young person about it, you might be able to prevent it from happening in the first place.

An awful lot of poor behaviour in secondary school is from youngsters (esp young men) posturing. This is either to curry favour with peers or to cover up that they cannot effectively access the work. Incidents of the latter have increased dramatically since the new curriculum which is overly packed, deliberately difficult and psychologically damaging to all but the most able children. For example, AQA biology in 2023 to get a grade 9 - a score attained by just the top few percent - you had to get 63 percent or thereabouts. What is the point of a GCSE set so difficult that even the brightest few percent of children cannot access 1/3 of the paper? That means that kids who are ok at biology and "passing" are getting probably just 30-40 percent correct. If you sat an exam where you couldn't answer well over half the paper, would you enjoy it? Would you feel like you were doing ok?

Pass marks in the higher maths for grade 4 have hovered around 26 percent. Again, this is psychologically damaging.

Our less academically able youngsters are sitting in classes day in and day our where the majority of the work is not accessible to them. And I am not talking about kids with severe learning difficulties here, I mean ordinary average range kids who are perfectly capable of functioning well in society.

I am telling you now that changing the curriculum to one that is flexible enough to meet the needs of ALL children, not just aimed at the academically most able ten percent, one that acknowledged and celebrates creativity, sporting prowess, working with one's hands, problem solving as well as a narrow academic focus, would solve a heck of a lot of the problems around behaviour in schools today.

If I was in a job where everyday 3/4 of what I was asked to do made no sense to me and then I got into trouble for not being able to do the stuff that made no sense, I took would be pissed off and mucking about within a couple of months, and clinging to the things that do bring me happiness in that situation - friends, football, whatever.

It's not just a recent thing. 25 years ago I had a reception class where the general behaviour was poor. I was an experienced teacher even then and at times was at my wits end. However, at a general parents' meeting I made it very clear that I put the responsibility on them and I expected support from home. Education is a team effort between parents and school.
I'm told by my DD who works in a school that teachers wouldn't be allowed to say things like that to parents now. Sod that!

You see it on here. Parents (some) justifying their children's atrocious behaviour. Blaming it on just being a teenager. Always believing what a child says before speaking with the school. It was bad years ago but now it's even worse.

I hate gentle parenting but I don’t think it’s to blame for the extreme sort of behaviours that are deemed the norm for secondary schools here.

This!
Some kids just get a kick out of behaving badly.

I am telling you now that changing the curriculum to one that is flexible enough to meet the needs of ALL children, not just aimed at the academically most able ten percent, one that acknowledged and celebrates creativity, sporting prowess, working with one's hands, problem solving as well as a narrow academic focus, would solve a heck of a lot of the problems around behaviour in schools today.

I completely agree with this. Big reforms to the curriculum would be the best thing we can do for our children-primary and secondary.

The narrower the path, the more people will fall off…

Too much soft parenting and letting kids run amok. It is better to have boundaries and respect taught by parents.

Parents defending their kids and disagreeing with teachers when given detention.

Behaviour of the majority is good. But a significant minority are beyond awful. Staff not backed up fully by leadership in the fact that consequences are not always followed through which undermines the behaviour system and the downward spiral continues. My sympathies lie with the the 90% of pupils doing the right thing who must be frustrated beyond belief at the adults failing them by not dealing with the disruptors who selfishly ruin every day for them.

Posted this on another thread, but covers a lot of what has been previously discussed;
Just realised that parental attitude towards teachers has taken a significant nosedive in the last twenty years. I was in the company of whom I would call good parents yesterday, and on at least three occasions, private lives of teachers were discussed, sickness etc, personal opinions shared on how ‘good’ the teaching is and how their darling offspring either really liked them or disliked them as if it’s a popularity contest to be won.
All conversations were quickly shut down as there were a couple of teachers present and friends are too polite to keep it going but I can only imagine what is said where we aren’t there. And we wonder why the education system is screwed?!

@JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn The difference between DDs school and where I worked are seemingly small things. but all with a positive focus. Catching student being good and rewarding them. The school I worked at had a change of head and he sort of tried to implement it but through sanctions, getting staff to report on each other, using techniques not suited to our demographic and mostly sanction based. We had scripts to follow, no grey areas and it was an unpleasant place to work. Everyone from my former department has now left.

At DDs school all students can get up to 3 minors a week before a detention - so if they've made a mistake like left their stationery at home, were late to school because the bus was late they are given the chance to improve and not have it repeat. It recognizes that the demographic is made up of poorer families many with unconventional living arrangements and many things arent always the child's fault or within their control. Instead of being heavily sanctioned with an hour's detention if they have left their equipment at home or stayed at dads / grandmas the night before and not had the right things because of shared care then they can go to student reception and 'buy' a pencil case with their good behaviour credits. Obviously bigger things like fighting are dealt with immediately and sanctioned appropriately.

The expectation is on good behaviour, every student is awarded 5 credits a day at the start and it's on them to gain more or to lose them. That avoids only the 'good' students having them, or only the challenging ones that tried hard today getting them.

The head teacher is very charismatic, is always around the school, a big focus on community / houses / student Vs staff competition not just in sport but FIFA at lunch time, baking contests, writing competitions etc. He is well liked amongst students and staff. The school feelss like a happy place when you visit. The head that started at my school lived in his office and you rarely saw him, if he was on the corridor he did not challenge poor behaviour but let it slide expecting other staff to pick up on it but giving the students a terrible message.

DDs school are big on celebrating successes inside and out of school. Have a strong music programme still and a show every year. The SEND staff are great DD is high achieving and autistic and I feel like they've got our backs in getting her the support she needs.

At DDs school teachers only have to mark assessments, obviously they use other strategies during the lesson to gauge how the lesson is going. This frees up their time to run clubs and build relationships with students. At my school such a heavy marking load was introduced that no one had the time or wanted to run clubs so student relationships faltered.