To ask teachers about disruptive behaviour in secondary schools?

[mimblewimble]

I hear of so many teachers leaving the profession, or describing how they work in extremely stressful conditions, with student behaviour being awful and seemingly getting worse.

My kids report so much disruption in class at their school, which is apparently one of the best local state schools.

As I write this I'm thinking I'm probably BU just for asking teachers anything as I'm sure you don't have loads of spare time and mental energy!

But I'm interested in what teachers would like to see done to tackle behaviour in secondary schools - are there changes that you think would help?

Or do you work in a school where the behaviour is good, and if so why do you think that is?

I’m laughing at the comments of parents not Believing which is exactly what happened to us a few weeks ago
got called in at the end of the day because apparently my Daughter called someone a bad word. I instantly knew it did not happen and that daughter would be distraught 🙈🙈 now if you called me in send said she forgot her supplies / was hanging over the table / was fidgeting / lost focus I would hold my hands up 😂 but swearing or even saying boo to a ghost I would never ever Believe. She has had selective mutism since the day she could talk, she is the most passive ( too passive child you have ever met ) and hates and I mean hates swear worlds with a passion it’s a little bit of an obsession not to swear. You could offer her 100.00 and she would not swear and she would not call anyone a name. - in this instance I was right though and it was not her !

It is extremely difficult for a school to remove children from their school for low level disruption and practically impossible if they are low to mid level disrupters who have SEN. There must be more support in schools and more small extra support style schools or alternative providers who can cater for children who cannot or will not allow other children to get on and learn in mainstream classrooms.

Children with EHCPs which clearly state they can’t help but call out or randomly walk about, for example, cannot receive a consequence for this behaviour in a lesson. This creates a difficult situation in the classroom whereby other children see unfairness because they receive a consequence for this behaviour but another child or other children do not. This then undermines the behaviour system. I had a terrible issue with a low ability set a few years ago where there were multiple children with EHCP protection- which I totally agree with- and then other children with no SEN who were just low ability and did not innately understand the difference between equality and equity, as some groups do, and lessons were chaos. Nothing could be done and parents were furious to discover their child had yet another consequence for poor behaviour while ‘Harry’ was ‘let off again’. Obviously you can’t discuss other children’s needs with other parents, so what is the answer?

Schools need more money to meet the ever increasing needs, they need greater autonomy to remove students who regularly disrupt- even at a lower level, and we need more specialist schools and quality alternative providers to support those whose needs can’t be met in mainstream schools. Mainstream schools cater well for the middle. Those outside the middle sometimes will require different support and for this money is needed.

I’ve kind of answered that above. I think there’s no one easy, simple answer but I do think it’s more complex than ‘bad parents.’

I think some parents are struggling a lot, with a myriad of issues. I think most of them care, though.

I have had many a rude student in my time. It is unpleasant to be on the receiving end of it and I won’t say it isn’t both upsetting and frustrating because it is. Violence luckily I’ve never really experienced at me although there have been fights in my presence. Refusal to attend class - that can be one of those with so many possible reasons it would take me hours to go into.

Homework honestly rightly or wrongly I couldn’t care less about.

I think that primary schools are a massive problem. Far too much wishy washy "that's not ok" and pandering to the disruptive kids. My DS notices it as "special treatment" for some ie the other week he lost behaviour points for something minor (I'm totally ok with this) whereas another kid who called the teacher shit, told her to fuck off, and smashed the other kids clay sculptures drying on the window cill, got a warning and some time playing basketball. Pretty sure he won't be very pleasant at senior school.

So many things to say here.

1. Lack of power from schools. We have a few hard-core repeat offenders in each year, in spite of many, many interventions. We can't get rid of them, largely because the school needs to watch its exclusion record. The handwriting over exclusion rates pisses me off. People have no idea how hard it is to exclude kids. It usually takes about 4 years of evidence gathering and huge amounts of time.

1. Why should MY child have to...? You see if in real life and it spills into schools.

1. Children thinking they are the equal of teachers/ parents. They're not. Just like my kids aren't my equals. Yet.

1. The sheer selfishness- if I'm not interested in this lesson, then I'm going to fuck about and bollocks to anyone who wants to learn. I think part of that comes from a more selfish attitude from society in general.

1. The putting heads down on desks. So. Fucking. Rude.

1. The parents who indulge their kids through primary, think you're the enemy when their angel is in trouble in secondary, then by yr 11, when angel won't obey them either, wants school to help. A tiresome pattern repeated over and over.

1. Parents who refuse to medicate their kids and effectively send bombs into school.

1. Kids who are involved in gang activity outside school, so give absolutely no tucks what happens to them in school.

1. A gradual erosion of manners. When I first started, doors would be opened for you. More they just let them slam in your face. Kids would stand to one side to let you, and your armfuls of whatever, through. Kids wouldn't swear in your hearing. Kids wouldn't push their mates into you. Can you imagine what would harken to me if I did any of that to a kid?

Standard behaviour in Japan. They have no cleaners in schools. Children are expected to empty the bins, mop the floors etc. When I was in Japan I didn’t see one piece of litter or one mark of graffiti.

It does. Yes, all behaviour is purposeful and communicating something but it doesn't always mean there is an underlying MH or ND issue. The communication could simply be "stop telling me what to do because I don't like being told what to do"

I'll add 'trauma-informed practice' where most people bandying about the phrase don't seem to grasp what trauma-informed practice IS and think it's having no boundaries or expectations of behaviour, no challenging of those behaviours or consequences for them, and think it means you assume every unacceptable behaviour is a result of trauma so treat the DC who has been violent or abusive, even when criminally responsible; as a victim of something even if it can't be identified, and take them out of class or school for extra attention and to Mcdonalds or go-karting.

Then when thousands of children are refusing to go to school and there is a huge increase of antisocial behaviour, knife crime and murder perpetrated by children, blame it on poverty, or racism or lack of MH provision or something else when the answer is staring us in the face.

I agree actually. The kids I see who are badly behaved, I see the parents swearing at them and pulling them about.

It's not all about poor/neglectful/weak parenting but a lot of it is. For example, when I first started teaching I had one boy (9 yo) in my class who was utterly horrible at times. On one occasion he punched another boy between the legs, really hurting him. I told him off and followed the school behaviour policy which was to not allow him golden time play. He said to me "you can't tell me off because if you do then I will tell my mum and she'll come into school and shout at you". The following morning in marched his mum and shouted at me. Apparently her ds wouldn't ever do anything as horrible as punch a child between the legs. She then went to the headteacher to say I was bullying her child and wanted to put in a complaint about me.

Over my 10 year teaching career the kids' behaviour got worse and worse, and the number of parents who argued that their child was innocent (even when they'd be seen by multiple witnesses) increased. This also coincided with the rise of smart phones- many parents are inadvertently neglectful because they're too busy scrolling rather than paying attention to what their kids are doing. Attitudes towards teachers and authority also come from home. Children being allowed to spend a lot of time on mobile phones watching inappropriate videos (violent/sexual/Andrew Tate etc) contribute to disruptions and terrible behaviour in schools. I don't believe all problems in schools lie simply with parenting but I do think that if parents were more supportive of schools and were more prepared to say no to their kids then many of the issues would improve.

I can't believe I forgot this point, and it's one of the main reasons I hate my current school!

I work in a ‘nice’ school. Behaviour is generally excellent. Poorly behaved students are in a minority yet I’ve lost count the number of time I’ve been sworn at. The ‘nice’ middle class parents often assume their precious little delight shouldn’t have to uphold the same rules because they are ‘academically able’.

In the same school I’ve also been assaulted by a parent and a student, in separate incidents a couple of years apart.

The thing that upsets me the most is the parents’ assumption that we lie about their child’s behaviour and that their child could never lie to save their own skin. Then they support their child in their lie. Why would I deliberately accuse a child of poor behaviour? It makes my workload increase massively. And don’t get me on groups of parents who deliberately gang up to make complaints about a member of staff their children don’t like.

The threads on Mumsnet quite often are exemplify what staff have to deal with on a daily basis when parents believing their child and parental expectations being unrealistic with the resources we have. It is heartening when so many people jump on to say they are being unreasonable as often we don’t see this in real life.

Anyway, rant over. I’m 30 years into teaching so I’m going nowhere but I’m struggling to keep youngsters in the profession.

We need parents to back us (I am a parent of a child at the school I teach at, btw).

I've been teaching 20 years, it's always been the same. An old Head of Year used to say to parents, 'It's our job as adults to work together and back each other. Siding with your child sends them the wrong message and condones poor conduct'.

The secondary I teach at is really nice; we remove disruptive children from class and they face consequences for their behaviour.

@ThrallsWifethat sounds rubbish. Sorry you've had so many pens destroyed, no wonder you are frustrated!
We don't expect kids to have calculators at my school, the Maths/Science department has them for then to use.

I agree, support staff don't often see the scale of things. We do see a lot though, and in my option it would be beneficial for schools to have more of us. We have a CEO who doesn't really "believe" in TAs and doesn't think they're needed. I completely disagree with that. I work with some really tricky students who will do the work if they have a TA sat next to them. Without someone there they can be incredibly disruptive.

BiscuityBoyle
Can you imagine what parents would say if it was introduced here? Parents would be apoplectic at the idea that their child had to do this.

Also since the 90s-the police (due to their own cuts) pushing serious incidents back to schools to deal with and manage. We have students together in school who the police refuse /are unable to deal with after 3.30.

Regular meetings with pastoral staff, social workers and police used to happen. I think that was 20 years ago.

We have a CEO who doesn't really "believe" in TAs and doesn't think they're needed.

The leader of the Conservatives agrees! I think she called them, ‘superfluous’ 🫣.

That's such a ridiculous pat assertion. I have taught since I was 20 and am regarded as one of the best behaviour managers in my school.

I am not sure my workplace is particularly polite, actually , but it's surely a desirable thing?

I'm only 10 years in teaching but I disagree that it's always been the same. I can see how each year the students are getting more entitled, parents are getting less supportive, behaviour is getting worse. When I compare the students I had 10 years ago to those I have now, the difference is astonishing!

I also am baffled by the amount of behaviours we are told to overlook, whereas 10 years ago we wouldn't. Parents are ringing in demanding their children are allowed go to the toilet whenever they want (as in 10 times in one class if they want), that their kids don't have to do homework, don't have to engage in class, and playing anxiety or "things going on at home" so it's accepted and we are basically told to let those kids do what they want! If the school fight back, we are seen as not being inclusive, putting too much pressure on, etc etc!

I think what would happen is that the students who dont already have behaviour issues would end up doing it all whilst those that 'cant cope' will do nothing and behave as normal and think it is their right to not do anything because someone has told them that they can't or don't have to do it.

I think that this debate is an interesting one. I don’t really like it when TAs support in my lessons and I do feel the impact they have on progress is questionable (I mean specifically for secondary here, I know it’s different in primary.)

That isn’t a comment about TAs as people; most are lovely. But if people want to hark back to yesteryear then you didn’t see TAs in the 90s in secondary schools.

I also agree with PP about medication.

ADHD is a medical condition whose front line treatment is meds. Why are you giving your kids a choice about taking it? They will end up self-medicating with alcohol or drugs, and their outcomes will be far poorer.

If a child has diabetes, it's controlled by meds. I fail to see how ADHD is different.

(DS1 is medicated for ADHD and is doing extremely well academically - because he can concentrate!).

At my school, behaviour in most lessons is good (there are issues with their respect to supply etc but that's not new) but our systems are tick boxy and fiddly.

But our kids are a nightmare in corridors. Things that no longer exist :

personal space (including when moving past adults)
holding doors open
opening doors with hands
indoor voices
no running in corridors.

These basics don't seem to be taught at our feeder schools any more.

I am so stressed by the end of lunchtime.

My school is one that is really liberal about phone use and this doesn't help.

I can relate to all of that @Piggywaspushed 😩

Especially fiddly systems!

Standard behaviour where DH and I are too (close to Japan), each classroom has around 6 mops and the children clean the school before lessons each morning. Even to the point of some of them are on the roads around the school doing litter picking. As far as I know a school of 2,000 children will have 2-3 handy people, all routine cleaning (even toilets) is done by the children. Bif things like floor waxing will have a contractor come in every 3 months or so.

Children are on a pass the year system where they move from year to year by getting a passing grade for the current/previous year. Refusal to participate in cleaning will be recorded and may lead to failing and repeating the year.

In general even teenage children around here are polite and respectful of virtually everyone they meet.

Its also interesting to note that around here that at any age female (school to pensioner) thinks nothing of walking home after dark. The number of single 20-40 yo female joggers after dark here is amazing. DD18 thinks nothing of taking the metro/bus and then walking from the bus stop alone at 10-11 pm. I wonder if some of this safety comes from the respect and honour the boys here have to give their female teachers in schools?

Can I ask the teachers what you do for the children who aren’t like that (or what could be done?) We’ve moved DD to private school which is excellent and she is flying, but we persevered with her state primary until I stopped trusting the school to care about her or was keeping her safe as it was clearly affecting her negatively.

In year 4 there were boys calling teachers fucking bitches or ugly cunts, fights including in the classroom, talk about first person shooter games and horror films, one of the 8 year olds smoked and set of a fire alarm and one boy got suspended as he kept asking girls to touch inside their pants. Lots of bullying - not her in particular but really horrible to be around. This is Year 4. Her class ended up being taught by the head as 2 form tutors resigned (one walked out the classroom in tears and they never saw her again and the other told them they were the worst class she had ever taught and swore at them).

What did it for me was DD was frequently sat at next to one of the naughtiest kids and asked to explain work to her (I know the is some pedagogy about reinforcing learning etc) but she found it stressful so I don’t really care. After we moved her she was diagnosed dyslexic; but because of the mantra that you don’t ask for help unless you’ve really tried she started to believe she was stupid because she couldn’t read the instructions and the teacher dismissed her. I even had a teacher tell me she was disregulated and should work on her resilience when she was very obviously scared.

I understand it’s horrible for teachers and the different causes and solutions being suggested, but what can a school of teacher do to support a child like mine? She always got excellent marks for effort, was polite, kind and wanted to work? She’s come on leaps and bounds academically and socially since we moved her but we never ever thought we would use private schools. She definitely won’t be going back to a state secondary if it’s just a continuation of what happened in primary which is what everyone seems to be saying.