'Females.'

[Toenailz]

Anyone else cringe when people refer to women as 'females' in the context of completely casual conversation? And also wonder where the fuck it started and why it's become so popular?

Usually utilised by men referring to women as 'females' and, on here, usually by scorned women referring to another woman that their DH is being in some way inappropriate with, as 'another female' or 'a female'.

Yeah yeah, the correct biological terms and all, but can't help feeling this has a rather sexist connotation to reduce women to less, as usual?

I prefer it as I know it means a biological female, as women has been taken and is being used for females and others. I think people denigrating it are just trying to get women to be as the accepted term for their own agenda.

@SleepToad, to many women, ladies definitely does feel off. I cringe when both male and female colleagues use it, but for different reasons. But I also understand that you wouldn't be deliberately trying to offend.

And about women sounding 'blunt'. Oh no. When I hear a man referring to women as women (and not in the that woman or woman delivery driver way) , I breathe a sigh of relief. I think better of him, and imagine he's not afraid of women.

Woman is not blunt, but rich and full. It is, weirdly, the closest I come to feeling anything remotely like patriotism (and I'm generally unsentimental and not that way inclined at all) ‐I feel a kind of kinship with women, both in my everyday relationships and as a universal class.

Yes to this. Don't get me started on the idiocy of the terms chestfeeding and pregnant people. Urghh. Totally unnecessary to change the lingo. Healthcare professionals will be aware if a service user is non binary anyway. No need for tokenistic gestures via changing language. If non-binary can use their services then those services are inclusive and no need for wanky gestures like this.

Yes in that context I agree, It wouldn’t bother me as much if people who refer to women/ girls as females also referred to men/ boys as males but they tend not to.

I get that it's weird that there are lots of friendly neutral words for a man - bloke, chap, fella etc. - but no real equivalents for women (a bit like the eternal willy debate); but woman is surely the best default for an adult (who is very much no longer a girl).

It is neutral, even though some people may believe otherwise.

Lady is maybe a more 'respectful' term when talking to a small child; but I think it's mainly only more appropriate where you'd refer to a man as a gentleman in the exact same context.

This woman denigrating it is doing so because it's dehumanising, reductive and also grammatically dubious in this context, since we're not voicing a nature documentary. HTH.

Unfortunately, while you know what you mean, there is no obvious law or rule to stop others using 'female' to include trans-women (insert preferred term if desired) if they want to. So I don't see that it helps.

I try not to overthink stuff. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I find the use by the police of "a male" or "a female" suspect deliberately dehumanising. They could just as well say a man or a woman, especially as they are usually only referring to their general impression.

Instantly assume that anyone does this is bloody odd. It’s so reductive that it reflects on the speaker doing it. Man or woman.

I've noticed that a lot of men who "wear uniforms", like the Forces, Police, Prison Service and so on use the term "female". I've berated the two I know in those professions for using the term Female when they mean Woman.

Has anyone else noticed this? It must be part of their training or something.

It reminds me of Mr Collins and 'the usual practice of elegant females'. And he was a caricature of a socially clueless gobshite almost 250 years ago.

It certainly can be used in a derogatory way, and in a normal way. Context/ intention are key.

In such cases, I think it's best to resist the logic that because a word can be (or even often is) used dismissively that the word itself should be retired.

Otherwise we end up endlessly cycling through terms, as the old ones become unusable. It doesn't remove the objectionable usages/people, but distracts from more productive issues. And jt often ends up creating shibboleths where people are approved or disapproved of based on what linguist circles they move in. That generally disadvantages those with lower social capital, ie, it's elitist.

Sometimes it's unavoidable, but in general we should try to slow the linguistic treadmill not speed it up.

I ask people not to do it because i find it patronising. Women is ok as is girls (when referring to actual girls, otherwise i ask people not to do that either)

It is often used by MRAs and Incel groups and it immediately puts me in mind of the Ferengi in Star Trek.

People who carry on using it when i have asked them not to? i tend not to listen to them at all and cba to talk to them.

Thanks. I like the fact that you have explained that so clearly. Definitely women from now on

You think the noun used for female people (women) should be “a female” with the plural “females”?

Really? You’d say “I’m sitting over there with those females”, or “A female got onto the bus”?

When referencing services and spaces for biological women only. The word woman may be, at times erroneously, assumed to mean any person who wishes to be considered a woman. This can lead to confusion as to who a service or space is intended for. The use of female makes this clearer.

Interesting input from all sides.

I am surprised this has turned into quite the gender debate - though perhaps I shouldn't really be, given the context - eg. noun vs adjective and the current state of the go woke parade.

For me, the trans women issue didn't compute because I have very firm, and very straightforward, factual views on this. Not that my posting them will be received well by some.

I didn't consider trans women in the context of using women vs females because my view is that trans women are not women, they are men attempting to appear and live as women, regardless how far along in their journey they are. So, women for women, trans women for trans women would be my vocabulary. I am not of the group who feel its acceptable for trans women to expect women to also refer to them simply as 'women' I'm afraid, as it's just not the reality. They are a person whom has attempted to change gender, but will biologically always be 'male'. Though I understand in current society, the apparent acceptable norm is that gender is different from sex. I just can't buy into it.

It's interesting though, because I'm not going to walk around referring to trans women as men, as I understand that would be quite insulting. That being said, I HAVE been referred to as both a cis woman and 'menstruater' once - on a study of women's medical experience of period problems and hormonal issues and it absolutely boiled my blood and I'm not (and didn't) stand for that either. Why on earth trans women are being allowed to contribute to a medical survey on periods is beyond me, genuinely - medical research input that women desperately need and is severely lacking, and men living as women are being encouraged to contribute to that data, to me, is living in a complete fantasy land. In any case, I don't need an extra description, I am simply a woman, always was, always will be, and it's as simple as that. The people who feel the extra description is necessary are, in my view, the only ones that really need it applied ie 'trans... woman/man'.

I don't believe it's fair to women that we now need to be referred to as female to make the distinction clear, because the patriarchy can't even leave the word 'women' alone to us. I find it utterly dehumanising that I need to be described as a 'female' because a man putting on a dress now uses the word woman to describe himself and it's no longer clear. No thanks, not buying into it, nor supporting it either by adopting the term female to describe an actual woman in real, casual context.

Although I do think it's used more by men being derogative towards women, and usually by women to dehumanise the 'other woman' (whom may or may not even be the other woman, simply someone their slimey OH is drooling over). So, yeah, just seems to be an issue caused by men, yet again, really.

@Toenailz I agree with you about all of that, however, when I am talking to people who believe trans women are women, I know that if I use the word "women" they won't interpret it in the way that I mean it. Which is why I end up saying female people.

Yes. It's absolutely this. I also agree with everything the OP has said. But practically remains the dilemma. If I say women, for example in a professional context within a 'progressive' environment, the default assumption is that this means everyone who prefers to be thought of as a woman. Sometimes this is not who I mean at all. I mean biological women. I struggle for a way to make this clear without resorting to saying 'but NOT transwomen' which would go down extremely badly. I have just thought of female as the least worst way of being clear. This discussion has made me think though and I'd be interested in alternatives.

Indeed. Like, if you say that women's sports should be for women only, these people will say, "Yes, I agree. Trans women are women though."

It's infuriating.

Female people, though, not females?

Or individuals with wombs 😂😂😂 Yes females as males don't have wombs & never will! The truth hurts! Reality bites 😂

Exactly. I feel we have been pushed into a position where the word woman has to be qualified. And while I get and support that people want to refuse to do so on principle, practically it is 'misunderstood' (taken advantage of) when we don't.

Absolutely. I will say female clients/female staff. Adjective not noun.