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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Personal thoughts on assisted dying.

102 replies

Widowtobeat40 · 21/11/2024 00:02

AIBU to find the assisted dying Bill debate really hard?
My husband is 47 he's terminally ill. Best case he has close to 12 months worse case a couple of months. He's in significant pain, is currently going through the process of serious ill Health retirement which has had a huge impact on his self worth.
He has gone through some of the most brutal treatment I've seen in the last 3 1/2 years making every attempt to survive but where he is now is that he wants to be able to chose when enough is enough.
I appreciate that it's a hugely personal vote but what I see is most people against it are those that have no experience of a terminal illness or those that are disabled rather than terminally ill.
I absolutely understand the concern about the possibility of expanding the safeguards but that isn't what MPs are voting on. The Mental health act has changed minimally over the years despite huge suggested changes.
My husband could get the best palliative care in the world but truth is he is likely to die a pretty awful, painful death. Should he not be allowed to decide when enough is enough???
Whatever the vote it will be too late for him but I would like to think that others will get that choice.

OP posts:
LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:11

BleedingMeDry · 21/11/2024 00:54

This is completely inaccurate.

Not a single statement related to MAID is factually correct.

Someones been giving you mistaken information or outright lies.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it were true. Enough abuses have happened in Canada- read this for examples.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/canadas-euthanasia-horrors-are-accelerating/

Disturbingly, the law altered Canadians views on whether the poor and homeless should be euthanised simply for being poor or homeless.

”At this point, it is worth recalling that euthanasia legalization changes the general morality of society and its respect for life in very disturbing ways. For example, a poll taken last year in Canada found that 27 percent of Canadians strongly or moderately agree that euthanasia is acceptable for suffering caused by “poverty” and 28 percent strongly or moderately agree that killing by doctors is acceptable for suffering caused by homelessness.”

DaftyLass · 21/11/2024 01:14

Not only do you have to have multiple doctors sign off, to try everything even if you have tried before, or have horrific side effects, and such , you also have to provide independent witnesses, who are not allowed to be family or anyone who could ever inherit from you
Even if you get approved for MAID , you still have to go through a cooling off period as well, in case you change your mind.
It is not quick , easy or in any way a first option for anyone here in Canada

HeddaGarbled · 21/11/2024 01:15

Well that discussion deteriorated rapidly. That’s part of the problem with this debate. People get entrenched and abusive and silly.

Fortunately most of our MPs are more sensible, though the populist twits on their vote drumming up campaigns pander to the silly, which isn’t helpful.

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:17

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:11

I wouldn’t be surprised if it were true. Enough abuses have happened in Canada- read this for examples.

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/canadas-euthanasia-horrors-are-accelerating/

Disturbingly, the law altered Canadians views on whether the poor and homeless should be euthanised simply for being poor or homeless.

”At this point, it is worth recalling that euthanasia legalization changes the general morality of society and its respect for life in very disturbing ways. For example, a poll taken last year in Canada found that 27 percent of Canadians strongly or moderately agree that euthanasia is acceptable for suffering caused by “poverty” and 28 percent strongly or moderately agree that killing by doctors is acceptable for suffering caused by homelessness.”

Utter nonsense. The National Review is not a credible source at all. It's a right wing propaganda rag.
I have posted the criteria from Health Canada. It is beyond dispute that the law is actually quite restrictive.

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:18

DaftyLass · 21/11/2024 01:14

Not only do you have to have multiple doctors sign off, to try everything even if you have tried before, or have horrific side effects, and such , you also have to provide independent witnesses, who are not allowed to be family or anyone who could ever inherit from you
Even if you get approved for MAID , you still have to go through a cooling off period as well, in case you change your mind.
It is not quick , easy or in any way a first option for anyone here in Canada

Exactly. All these lies about it are so annoying.

Whatevershallidowithmylife · 21/11/2024 01:23

In the same position as your husband hence the reason I’m awake and crying with pain till the pills kick in to get a few hours relief. I would give anything to put an end to it now. On a financial note I was going the same route as your DH but realised my family would find the death in service benefit a good help so I’ve stopped that process. MacMillan are fabulous at ensuring you get whatever benefits you are entitled to.

TwentySeventy · 21/11/2024 01:24

Did anyone see that Liz Carr documentary " Better off dead? " . She was in Canada investigating this very subject.

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:24

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:09

Proven, you say? Okay, prove it. Prove such abuses are happening. Then prove such abuses are inevitable if there is assisted death, that they are inherent to the process itself.
You can't, because they're not. Your argument is therefore devoid of logic and invalid.

There are numerous research papers on the subject, which I suspect you haven’t bothered to read. I think a 100% it’s happened everywhere else is as close to inevitable as we can get. Isn’t a definition of madness to do the same thing but expect a different outcome?

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:29

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:18

Exactly. All these lies about it are so annoying.

It’s not a lie that on average only 4% of applications for MAID are rejected and that an un-nerving number of deaths have been a result of expansion of the law such that people are being given lethal injections simply because their disability check doesn’t cover the rent. The New Atlantis published slides from a Canadian Association of MAID Assessors and Providers seminar, in which a retired care coordinator noted that a couple of patients had cited poverty or housing uncertainty, rather than their medical condition, as their main reason for seeking death.
https://unherd.com/newsroom/leaked-slides-reveal-dark-side-of-canadas-euthanasia-policy/

Leaked slides reveal dark side of Canada's euthanasia policy

Since Canada’s euthanasia regime broke into the global public consciousness earlier this year, people across the world have been horrified by stories of ordinary Canadians choosing to die at the hands of a doctor instead of carrying on living in povert...

https://unherd.com/newsroom/leaked-slides-reveal-dark-side-of-canadas-euthanasia-policy

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:30

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:24

There are numerous research papers on the subject, which I suspect you haven’t bothered to read. I think a 100% it’s happened everywhere else is as close to inevitable as we can get. Isn’t a definition of madness to do the same thing but expect a different outcome?

Then you should have no problem providing the links to this research, right?

100% of the time? That's bonkers.
Look, you obviously can't back up your claims, so just acknowledge that and move on.

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:39

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:29

It’s not a lie that on average only 4% of applications for MAID are rejected and that an un-nerving number of deaths have been a result of expansion of the law such that people are being given lethal injections simply because their disability check doesn’t cover the rent. The New Atlantis published slides from a Canadian Association of MAID Assessors and Providers seminar, in which a retired care coordinator noted that a couple of patients had cited poverty or housing uncertainty, rather than their medical condition, as their main reason for seeking death.
https://unherd.com/newsroom/leaked-slides-reveal-dark-side-of-canadas-euthanasia-policy/

Another bullshit right wing rag source. Zero credibility.

Facts;
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html

The stories you speak of, if true, would be a violation of the law.
Since they are only anecdotes, they have no evidentiary value.

Fourth annual report on Medical Assistance in Dying in Canada 2022 - Canada.ca

This Fourth Annual Report on Medical Assistance in Dying presents data for the 2022 calendar year collected under the 2018 Regulations for the Monitoring of Medical Assistance in Dying.

https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:39

“Eligibility criteria for physician-assisted suicide in the UK proposes: the patient must have capacity; the request be entirely voluntary; a terminal illness with a prognosis of fewer than 6 months to live; and two physicians certifying the criteria are met.

Leaving aside prognostic accuracy, considerations of justice trump all potential eligibility criteria. Why is an arbitrary six months proposed? Why not one, two or five years? If death is a therapeutic intervention, why restrict it to terminal illness alone and deny the proposed benefit to other sufferers? The incremental extension of eligibility criteria is alarming and inevitable, as seen in countries where physician-assisted suicide has been embraced.

Canada presents a stark case study. In under a decade, MAiD has progressed from illegality to the following: rolled out nationally from one province originally, the terminal illness criteria dropped, advanced directives for MAiD accepted, criteria expanded to include a sole diagnosis of a mental health disorder (‘temporary exclusion of eligibility’; initial March 17, 2023 implementation date delayed one year for logistical reasons), and Bill C-7 under review to consider lowering the legal age for accessing MAiD to 12-yr-olds deemed competent to make the decision to end their lives. Of note, the ‘right’ to euthanasia in the Netherlands extends to children from 12 years of age, and criteria in Belgium state no minimum age limit. Wiebe and Mullin19 have also defended homelessness alone as sufficient grounds to seek MAiD. In Belgium, euthanasia without explicit patient consent (as a best interest decision) has been practiced for some years.20

Societal normalisation is relevant and inevitable. Annual increases in assisted deaths have been seen across permissive legislatures, where safeguards become ‘barriers to access’. The same is true for reporting. In Belgium and The Netherlands, not all cases of euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide are reported, undermining regulation and accountability.3

”Reports indicate that inadequate pain control is seen in less than 33% of patients requesting physician-assisted suicide; their issues relate to fears of burdensomeness, dependence, and loss of control.26 Suffering is a perception; advances in specialist palliative care can control the majority of pain and suffering effectively and change people's perceptions of themselves and what is happening to them. There are legitimate concerns from other jurisdictions that legalising physician-assisted suicide could result in devaluing and hindering palliative care development,6 rather than addressing how to harness the service more effectively for its users.27 Physician-assisted suicide conflates an individual's suffering with their very being, implying that their existence is the problem.”

“The proposition that ‘we end lives already’ is a fallacy. A treatment is only lawful if it is wanted, will work, and is a benefit.28 Stopping unhelpful or unwanted treatments is our duty, accepting the natural consequences of whatever underlying pathology is present. These include life-sustaining treatments and futile treatment escalations. The intent is not death, but avoidance of unnecessary harms. Rarely, continuous deep sedation at the end of life is used to palliate. In the UK, administering anaesthesia to those wishing to be unconscious in the final days of life has also been defended, though clearly distinguished from an intention to speed death.29 Evidence suggests that where medication is used judiciously, there is little risk of shortening life.30 Physician-assisted suicide is an independent causal act and therefore different.31
https://www.bjanaesthesia.org.uk/article/S0007-0912(24)00003-5/fulltext

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:40

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:30

Then you should have no problem providing the links to this research, right?

100% of the time? That's bonkers.
Look, you obviously can't back up your claims, so just acknowledge that and move on.

Sure I can spam the thread with dozens of links.

momtoboys · 21/11/2024 01:42

I am so sorry for your family. It must be awful. I am 100% an advocate for being able to decide when enough is enough.

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:44

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:39

Another bullshit right wing rag source. Zero credibility.

Facts;
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/publications/health-system-services/annual-report-medical-assistance-dying-2022.html

The stories you speak of, if true, would be a violation of the law.
Since they are only anecdotes, they have no evidentiary value.

You’re in denial.

There are plenty of publications on the abuses
”Many have warned for years that when facilitated suicide is expanded to those with disabilities who have decades left to live, it is impossible to filter out suffering due to poverty, loneliness and other marginalization fueling MAiD requests. The medical disability becomes the foot in the door to open eligibility for MAiD, but social suffering pushes the marginalized through that door to seek state-sponsored death for their life struggles.
The coroner’s report uses a marginalization index based on area of residence (similar to the way impacts on marginalized populations were identified during COVID-19) to divide the population into five levels, each representing 20 per cent of the population. The data shows a much higher proportion of Track 2 MAiD recipients come from highly marginalized categories than Track 1 MAiD recipients, or the general population.
People in the lowest “material resource” category (i.e. poverty) represent 20 per cent of the general population, but they make up 28.4 per cent of Track 2 MAiD recipients, compared to 21.5 per cent of Track 1 recipients.
People in the lowest 20 per cent of the population with the worst housing instability made up 48.3 per cent of Track 2 MAiD recipients, compared to 34.3 per cent of Track 1 recipients. Track 2 recipients were also far more likely to come from the most vulnerable 20 per cent of the population in terms of age and labour force participation, with 56.9 per cent of Track 2 MAiD recipients coming from this category compared to 41.8 per cent of Track 1 MAiD recipients.
Gender gaps of more women than men receiving Track 2 MAiD are also emerging.
Additionally the report shed light on specific cases of concern, including people receiving Track 2 MAiD for social and housing vulnerability, and for unclear reasons while still suffering from inadequately treated mental illness and addictions.
This includes a man with a history of suicidal ideation and untreated addictions whose psychiatrist asked during a session whether he was aware of MAiD. After being approved, he was “personally transported (by the MAiD provider) in their vehicle to an external location for the provision of MAiD”.
https://theconversation.com/maid-and-marginalized-people-coroners-reports-shed-light-on-assisted-death-in-ontario-241661

https://care.org.uk/news/2024/10/poor-lonely-and-homeless-opting-for-assisted-death-in-canada

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:53

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:30

Then you should have no problem providing the links to this research, right?

100% of the time? That's bonkers.
Look, you obviously can't back up your claims, so just acknowledge that and move on.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6913818/#s5

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/344254465_Assisted_dying_around_the_world_A_status_quaestionis

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6295549/#s3

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:57

XChrome · 21/11/2024 01:30

Then you should have no problem providing the links to this research, right?

100% of the time? That's bonkers.
Look, you obviously can't back up your claims, so just acknowledge that and move on.

Feel free to post evidence of any one country with legalised assisted dying that hasn’t had any abuses. Or you can admit you can’t back up your assertion that there is nothing to worry about. You were already wrong about Canada.

username358 · 21/11/2024 01:57

IMO the law is the thin end of the wedge and I'm concerned about Drs making choices based on budgets, people being coerced, people feeling like a burden and the criteria widening.

If you think back to the sociopath rambling of Boris 'let the bodies pile high' Johnson, patients having unauthorized DNRs on their records and COVID running rampant in care homes and people saying that the vulnerable would die anyway - you have no idea of the kind of changes a government would bring in. Especially given the cost of elderly care and the state of the NHS.

Canada offers euthenasia for homelessness, poverty and mental health problems. These are all issues the State can rectify with investment but it's far cheaper to kill people.

I read about a young autistic woman with depression who chose to be euthanised. I believe she could have been helped with more support but we'll never know now.

Firefly1987 · 21/11/2024 02:02

I had high hopes for this bill but I just don't see it passing unfortunately-too many people against it. Although this thread does make me slightly more optimistic. Twitter is on the whole VERY against it, but I guess twitter tends to be very right-wing leaning and religious? If it does go through I think it'll be very close.

I just think having AD as an option will give huge comfort to people. I hate all the twitter comments saying stuff like "why do you think you're entitled to someone helping you have a peaceful death" they sound like bloody psychopaths some of them!

Firefly1987 · 21/11/2024 02:02

Looks like I spoke too soon and the twitter lot have gravitated over here 🙄

XChrome · 21/11/2024 02:02

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 01:39

“Eligibility criteria for physician-assisted suicide in the UK proposes: the patient must have capacity; the request be entirely voluntary; a terminal illness with a prognosis of fewer than 6 months to live; and two physicians certifying the criteria are met.

Leaving aside prognostic accuracy, considerations of justice trump all potential eligibility criteria. Why is an arbitrary six months proposed? Why not one, two or five years? If death is a therapeutic intervention, why restrict it to terminal illness alone and deny the proposed benefit to other sufferers? The incremental extension of eligibility criteria is alarming and inevitable, as seen in countries where physician-assisted suicide has been embraced.

Canada presents a stark case study. In under a decade, MAiD has progressed from illegality to the following: rolled out nationally from one province originally, the terminal illness criteria dropped, advanced directives for MAiD accepted, criteria expanded to include a sole diagnosis of a mental health disorder (‘temporary exclusion of eligibility’; initial March 17, 2023 implementation date delayed one year for logistical reasons), and Bill C-7 under review to consider lowering the legal age for accessing MAiD to 12-yr-olds deemed competent to make the decision to end their lives. Of note, the ‘right’ to euthanasia in the Netherlands extends to children from 12 years of age, and criteria in Belgium state no minimum age limit. Wiebe and Mullin19 have also defended homelessness alone as sufficient grounds to seek MAiD. In Belgium, euthanasia without explicit patient consent (as a best interest decision) has been practiced for some years.20

Societal normalisation is relevant and inevitable. Annual increases in assisted deaths have been seen across permissive legislatures, where safeguards become ‘barriers to access’. The same is true for reporting. In Belgium and The Netherlands, not all cases of euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide are reported, undermining regulation and accountability.3

”Reports indicate that inadequate pain control is seen in less than 33% of patients requesting physician-assisted suicide; their issues relate to fears of burdensomeness, dependence, and loss of control.26 Suffering is a perception; advances in specialist palliative care can control the majority of pain and suffering effectively and change people's perceptions of themselves and what is happening to them. There are legitimate concerns from other jurisdictions that legalising physician-assisted suicide could result in devaluing and hindering palliative care development,6 rather than addressing how to harness the service more effectively for its users.27 Physician-assisted suicide conflates an individual's suffering with their very being, implying that their existence is the problem.”

“The proposition that ‘we end lives already’ is a fallacy. A treatment is only lawful if it is wanted, will work, and is a benefit.28 Stopping unhelpful or unwanted treatments is our duty, accepting the natural consequences of whatever underlying pathology is present. These include life-sustaining treatments and futile treatment escalations. The intent is not death, but avoidance of unnecessary harms. Rarely, continuous deep sedation at the end of life is used to palliate. In the UK, administering anaesthesia to those wishing to be unconscious in the final days of life has also been defended, though clearly distinguished from an intention to speed death.29 Evidence suggests that where medication is used judiciously, there is little risk of shortening life.30 Physician-assisted suicide is an independent causal act and therefore different.31
https://www.bjanaesthesia.org.uk/article/S0007-0912(24)00003-5/fulltext

That's amusing. The data they provide on eligibility actually refutes the opinions expressed in this journal article. Look at the table for eligibility in Canada. They have defeated their own arguments.

MAID does not include 12 year olds. The law is 18 and up. I posted the Health Canada eligibility requirements. Read them.

IThinkImGonnaBeSadIThinkItsToday · 21/11/2024 02:05

This is the kind of thing I and many others are afraid of happening. Many elderly or terminally ill people feeling they're a burden on others might feel they should do this.

I also think nobody of who isn't of sound mind should be allowed this. A huge symptom of a lot of depressions is feeling a burden and extreme guilt for existing even.

XChrome · 21/11/2024 02:09

@username358 said;

Canada offers euthenasia for homelessness, poverty and mental health problems. These are all issues the State can rectify with investment but it's far cheaper to kill people.

Oh FFS. MAID for mental health is being reviewed (as well it should be) and is slated to be introduced in 2027, but there is absolutely, unequivocally no MAID for poverty and homelessness, nor any suggestion that there ever will be. I have already posted the legal requirements for MAID, so please stop posting these ridiculous lies.

LoremIpsumCici · 21/11/2024 02:10

XChrome · 21/11/2024 02:02

That's amusing. The data they provide on eligibility actually refutes the opinions expressed in this journal article. Look at the table for eligibility in Canada. They have defeated their own arguments.

MAID does not include 12 year olds. The law is 18 and up. I posted the Health Canada eligibility requirements. Read them.

No it doesn’t refute it. If you follow the link there are references to hard data. There is the coroners data showing MAID in practice. There is the law, and then there is how it is implemented. Intentions do not always translate into action.

You didn’t even read my post, it states quite clearly that MAID for 12yr olds is under review. It was.

Swipe left for the next trending thread