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To support UK Farmers: Part II

100 replies

Locutus2000 · 20/11/2024 14:36

Original post from TheHateIsNotGood 16/11/24

And due to KS's inability to face them in Wales today they are now thinking of going on strike. Because the govt are being too stubborn to reconsider how they apply IHT on working family farms. By all means close the loophole that allows the 'landed gentry' to take advantage of the agricultural exception but not with so blunt an instrument.

I was hoping to add a post to an existing thread but there isn't one despite it being headline news today.

Seems a thread worth keeping going.

OP posts:
Biffbaff · 21/11/2024 21:23

derxa · 21/11/2024 21:16

‘Pet horses’ Tee hee hee

Sorry is my agricultural lingo inaccurate? I mean the steeds they used to chase innocent creatures around for sport.

Noras · 21/11/2024 21:28

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 15:18

The APR side of the business might be worth 2.7million but what about the BPR bit! The bit that the government is refusing to talk about. Because the BPR counts towards the allowance too!
And not everyone will be able to get 3 million in allowance. It's only in a few select circumstances that will. Lots the threshold will be a lot lower.

There is no CGT paid on transfers between husband and wives so it’s pretty straight forward to transfer farms into joint names and then they will get the entire 3 million pound allowance. So let’s face it that most farmers can use the 3 million pound allowance in the same way that most people can use the one million pound allowance.

derxa · 21/11/2024 21:36

Biffbaff · 21/11/2024 21:23

Sorry is my agricultural lingo inaccurate? I mean the steeds they used to chase innocent creatures around for sport.

No hunting here. I have 3 horses on my land

derxa · 21/11/2024 21:37

Biffbaff · 21/11/2024 21:10

Absolutely not resentful or jealous, just an observation that I have never met a poor farmer, and I have met many of them!

No you haven’t.

Lairig · 21/11/2024 21:41

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 20:42

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

  • it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well. Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

Will farm land values not fall because of the IHT change and so reduce the inheritance liability? If farms were valued on their commercial (agricultural) income surely the problem would go away?

notanothernamechange24 · 21/11/2024 23:11

@Lairig no because IHT was only one factor in property prices going up. ALL property prices have gone up. Agricultural land hasn't gone up at a faster rate than any other property.

The agricultural land that has risen sharply in value is because it urban fringe land and has been earmarked for future development.

Plus even with this IHT change it is still the cheapest way to reduce your IHT bill so it won't reduce prices.

notanothernamechange24 · 21/11/2024 23:13

@Noras that assumes the oldest generation are a) married and b) have a living spouse. That's not always the case

notanothernamechange24 · 21/11/2024 23:16

@ARealitycheck there not denying anybody a job by not retiring 🙄
The next generation will be working alongside them and funnily enough usually they can't afford to hire in help!

Noras · 22/11/2024 03:59

notanothernamechange24 · 21/11/2024 23:13

@Noras that assumes the oldest generation are a) married and b) have a living spouse. That's not always the case

I strongly suspect that you don’t have to have a ‘living’ spouse and die simultaneously! That’s an impossibility or statistically unlikely.

At worse it can be staggered inheritance eg one spouse dies and their share goes to next generation of one million ( for farm excluding the farm house) then the next spouse dies ( at which point the farm house worth million passes over along with remainder of farm worth a million).

However I suspect there will be some relief transfer between spouses as per MHR. Therefore frankly as the detailed legislation not been written you are being alarmist because it will mostly be written in any event as determined at the last spouses death similar to the matrimonial house relief which operates on the death of the last spouse relief. So for matrimonial homes it matters not if your spouse died back in 1975! You still combine both of the couples’ relief.

Moroever I suspect that there are some uber wealthy farmers whipping misinformation up.

Before my disabled son was born I was a lawyer who was student the CTA exams. Frankly farmers have had it good in this respect for years. In contrast there is no relief for gifts on death to severely disabled off spring who can’t work and are not independent and who might have to live on benefits and in penury all their lives. Now that is a national scandal! So sorry I can get involved crying for farmers. Ask any parent of a severely disabled kid how they feel at 2 am when they wake in a cold sweat absolutely petrified about the future life of their disabled kids. We are scared to die!

WhitegreeNcandle · 22/11/2024 06:29

ARealitycheck · 21/11/2024 21:06

A choice not a commandment. Some may even argue it selfish by denying younger working age people a job.

Most definitely a choice I appreciate that. And I agree there are issues with the older generation not handing down assets and responsibility. But they aren’t really denying someone a job. There aren’t enough farm secretaries as is, they are like gold dust. I’m not sure anyone would want an ad hoc job looking after cattle one weekend in 6. Anyway, Labour won’t let us have zero hour contracts for that sort of thing soon.

Their lifetime of knowledge, experience and wisdom is also very useful to me as a younger farmer. I appreciate and their value.

WhitegreeNcandle · 22/11/2024 06:36

@Noras that is an absolutely shocking situation and should be looked at. Can trusts not be used?

On another topic there are quite a few rich farmers but I can’t name one that made their money through farming. 5 or 6 times out of ten it’s rollover money. The other 4 or 5 itll
be a diversification that has made the cash. Mostly now put in trusts or give away so IHT doesn’t apply. Also run as separated businesses so although the owner calls themself a farmer they will see the accounts that show very positive for non ag bits of the business and often very negative for the ag. Our farming industry is propped up by a lot of things. This being one.

Kwiaenrker · 22/11/2024 07:17

Blackrock is where this leads

justasking111 · 22/11/2024 08:05

Kwiaenrker · 22/11/2024 07:19

OMG, that is chilling.

louddumpernoise · 22/11/2024 08:26

justasking111 · 22/11/2024 08:05

OMG, that is chilling.

Lol! You really have no clue do you?

Blackrock, among others, sits behind much of the Financials services the UK enjoys to pay the taxes that pays the subsidy of over £3 billion to UK farmers.

It also manages pensions for almost 50% of UK workers.

... you call that "chilling" 😴

nervouslandlord · 22/11/2024 09:56

Sakurai · 20/11/2024 14:46

My dad just bought a working farm. He's laughing all the way to the bank and us kids with him. Now me and my 2 sisters get his whole estate tax-free, even under the new rules. Until 2 months ago, he / we would have paid 40% on our family home, cars, bank account holdings etc. Now, thanks to farm IHT rules, not a penny.

It makes me fucking sick, even as it'll make me fucking rich.

The Labour government should have exempted farms based on length of time farming by owner. Then proper family farms would have been OK and they might have been able to get my dad.

Similar...
My sister has bought two farms in the last two years after coming into a large inheritance herself.
Even with the changes her children are now laughing.
She's planning to 'rewild' as her 'legacy' 😂

Labour should have introduced a harsher regime for the likes of her, she perhaps raised the threashold for actual working farmers.

nervouslandlord · 22/11/2024 10:04

Maybe my sister also benefits from paying no tax on the brand new tractor she's bought to 'farm' or 'rewild' her land too. I think farm vehicles are exempt from road tax even though they rip up the lanes around us.
Maybe she can also buy cheap red, tax free dorsal too.

Sakurai · 22/11/2024 10:17

nervouslandlord · 22/11/2024 10:04

Maybe my sister also benefits from paying no tax on the brand new tractor she's bought to 'farm' or 'rewild' her land too. I think farm vehicles are exempt from road tax even though they rip up the lanes around us.
Maybe she can also buy cheap red, tax free dorsal too.

When you know it's a tax dodge, it really rankles, doesn't it? It really grates with me as they've had amazing free treatment from the NHS but don't want to pay tax!!!

I can't be too angry with the government as I think the principle is sound but I wish they'd chosen different criteria to implement it.

Although Jeremy Clarkson has had his farm for several years now so he'd probably still escape a tax bill.

Funny how I've never heard anyone, farmers or otherwise, complain about the drawbacks of making working farms a tax dodge for the wealthy until now....

WhitegreeNcandle · 22/11/2024 10:21

Sakurai · 22/11/2024 10:17

When you know it's a tax dodge, it really rankles, doesn't it? It really grates with me as they've had amazing free treatment from the NHS but don't want to pay tax!!!

I can't be too angry with the government as I think the principle is sound but I wish they'd chosen different criteria to implement it.

Although Jeremy Clarkson has had his farm for several years now so he'd probably still escape a tax bill.

Funny how I've never heard anyone, farmers or otherwise, complain about the drawbacks of making working farms a tax dodge for the wealthy until now....

Every working farmer has been grumbling about this and rollover for decades!

Sakurai · 22/11/2024 11:12

WhitegreeNcandle · 22/11/2024 10:21

Every working farmer has been grumbling about this and rollover for decades!

No offence but is that actually true? How come they can all rally to London to keep the tax dodge but not to get rid of it?

The BBC fact checker says IHT relief has put up the cost of farmland since the 1970s meaning small farmers can't expand - never heard them mention it!

justasking111 · 22/11/2024 12:26

Sakurai · 22/11/2024 10:17

When you know it's a tax dodge, it really rankles, doesn't it? It really grates with me as they've had amazing free treatment from the NHS but don't want to pay tax!!!

I can't be too angry with the government as I think the principle is sound but I wish they'd chosen different criteria to implement it.

Although Jeremy Clarkson has had his farm for several years now so he'd probably still escape a tax bill.

Funny how I've never heard anyone, farmers or otherwise, complain about the drawbacks of making working farms a tax dodge for the wealthy until now....

Clarkson bought the farm in 2008 I read.

WhitegreeNcandle · 22/11/2024 13:51

Sakurai · 22/11/2024 11:12

No offence but is that actually true? How come they can all rally to London to keep the tax dodge but not to get rid of it?

The BBC fact checker says IHT relief has put up the cost of farmland since the 1970s meaning small farmers can't expand - never heard them mention it!

Every locality has the farmer who sold to Tesco in the 80’s or some such and then used that money to buy up all the farmland locally. Farmers have been aware of this problem for decades and most feel something should be done about it. Many I know are unhappy with the way it’s been implemented not necessarily the concept of the tax. It’s hitting the wrong people. It’s still not hitting the ones who have driven up farmland prices

ARealitycheck · 23/11/2024 17:55

WhitegreeNcandle · 22/11/2024 13:51

Every locality has the farmer who sold to Tesco in the 80’s or some such and then used that money to buy up all the farmland locally. Farmers have been aware of this problem for decades and most feel something should be done about it. Many I know are unhappy with the way it’s been implemented not necessarily the concept of the tax. It’s hitting the wrong people. It’s still not hitting the ones who have driven up farmland prices

If they felt so strongly, why didn't Farmers demonstrate to get IHT restored years ago to discourage the investment farmers buying up land?

Solent123 · 29/11/2024 23:38

Sorry for turning up late.

I have just discovered that your average dairy famer gets paid 32p per litre of milk, it costs 35p a litre to produce, I pay Tesco £1.06 for a bog standard litre of milk, Tesco are on track to make a profit of £2.9bn this year - aibu to cut out Tesco and buy my milk from a local farmer - my local milkman will deliver for £1.10, not sure if that's the same.

nervouslandlord · 30/11/2024 07:41

Solent123 · 29/11/2024 23:38

Sorry for turning up late.

I have just discovered that your average dairy famer gets paid 32p per litre of milk, it costs 35p a litre to produce, I pay Tesco £1.06 for a bog standard litre of milk, Tesco are on track to make a profit of £2.9bn this year - aibu to cut out Tesco and buy my milk from a local farmer - my local milkman will deliver for £1.10, not sure if that's the same.

@Solent123 I suppose that's what subsidies are for, to bridge that gap. We're paying for those too of course, as tax payers.
I don't know the economics of subsidies - who gets what and why, and how much. But I do know that we live in an old farm house and the previous owner still claims subsidies for some neighbouring land.
How do I know? Because he uses our address on the firms!
So your milk equation needs another number inputted - the figure the farmer gets paid as a subsidy.

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