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To support UK Farmers: Part II

100 replies

Locutus2000 · 20/11/2024 14:36

Original post from TheHateIsNotGood 16/11/24

And due to KS's inability to face them in Wales today they are now thinking of going on strike. Because the govt are being too stubborn to reconsider how they apply IHT on working family farms. By all means close the loophole that allows the 'landed gentry' to take advantage of the agricultural exception but not with so blunt an instrument.

I was hoping to add a post to an existing thread but there isn't one despite it being headline news today.

Seems a thread worth keeping going.

OP posts:
justasking111 · 20/11/2024 18:07

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 17:54

@ARealitycheck how can you have foresight for a problem that didn't exist until 3 weeks ago?

This isn't poor planning on farmers part! They have been repeatedly told for decades that they didn't need to do this!!

Like the winter fuel allowance being removed now rather than next year so no chance to put money away for next winters bills.

justasking111 · 20/11/2024 18:10

ARealitycheck · 20/11/2024 18:03

Farmers have always known they would/could retire. They invested what would be pension pots in eg sheds equipment etc as forms of tax avoidance. Forgive me if I have little sympathy.

These are investments for the future that are needed now.

ARealitycheck · 20/11/2024 18:11

EdithStourton · 20/11/2024 18:05

I think a lot invested in barns and machinery not as a tax avoidance scheme but, um, to keep the farm viable.

You clearly have never met a farmer. Move away from the idea he is running around in a twenty year old landrover. Or that the tractor he has is held together by bailng twine. They renew much of the farm machinery on a rolling 2 or 3 years. They get exceptional finance deals from the finance houses rather than maintain the machinery they have. I know this because I dealt in that sector.

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 18:11

@ARealitycheck no they haven't! Most farmers don't stop working until they drop dead! They might not be doing the bulk of the work but they will be making the decisions! You don't retire from farming.

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 18:13

@ARealitycheck you are talking utter rubbish!

TheHateIsNotGood · 20/11/2024 18:17

I'm just wondering when the "22million black hole" will cease to be used as the reason for fiscal policy announcements....hopefully not as long as the But Brexit Drum.

louddumpernoise · 20/11/2024 18:20

justasking111 · 20/11/2024 16:54

You believe that NHS waiting lists are down to Brexit? Interesting theory. I've read otherwise re spend per head on health care before Brexit being lower here than in Europe.

ummm i said doubled since COVID but it wasn't helped by so many HCP leaving was it.

always helps to read whats written before replying!

louddumpernoise · 20/11/2024 18:25

TheHateIsNotGood · 20/11/2024 18:17

I'm just wondering when the "22million black hole" will cease to be used as the reason for fiscal policy announcements....hopefully not as long as the But Brexit Drum.

Are you of the opinion that believes you can cut NI by 4% but the loss of tax to the Govt can be magicked up out of thin air?

Brexit has cost the UK economy 10s of billions, maybe be even in the 100's, its a simple fact and that money has to be made good by cuts, borrowing or taxation.

magicmee · 20/11/2024 18:38

I fully support farmers. I'm not a farmer but the discrepancy in the figures from two government departments is very worrying.

Stephen Reed did a dreadful job yesterday up In front of the (I think) Defra panel, just reading from a script spouting the same old rhyme about a black hole, if they're so right then they need to publish their figures!

justasking111 · 20/11/2024 18:53

magicmee · 20/11/2024 18:38

I fully support farmers. I'm not a farmer but the discrepancy in the figures from two government departments is very worrying.

Stephen Reed did a dreadful job yesterday up In front of the (I think) Defra panel, just reading from a script spouting the same old rhyme about a black hole, if they're so right then they need to publish their figures!

That black hole waxes and wanes from 22 billion to 42 billion.

Starmers obsession to be the best in the world climate zero wise is quite bizarre.

TheHateIsNotGood · 20/11/2024 18:56

Although it's a Farming thread and I'm not quite sure what you are driving at but with regards to NI, I'd have kept them the same and, as for increasing Employer's Contributions I believe that was a bad move. It was kind that the public sector employers (eg: taxpayer) were exempt as if those had risen too it would have further increased the overall tax bill.

But like the Pensioners who have only the State Pension to live on, the small Farms who live hand to mouth (whilst also feeding others) the NI increases will affect small businesses the most.

It's like Rachael Reeves has turned into the Spitting Image of Norman Tebbit; the PM's bovver boy.

Can we get the thread back onto Farming please?

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 20:42

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

  • it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well. Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

EdithStourton · 20/11/2024 21:00

@notanothernamechange24 thank you for laying it all out so clearly.

A friend who knows nothing about farming keep wanging on about this on FB and it's driving me nuts.

EasternStandard · 20/11/2024 21:04

@notanothernamechange24 thanks for your post. I hope those who are for Labour's policy read it all

justasking111 · 20/11/2024 21:12

Words fail me too. What school would do this to children dumping them at an empty farm because they were wearing wellies.

To support UK Farmers: Part II
EdithStourton · 20/11/2024 21:17

ARealitycheck · 20/11/2024 18:11

You clearly have never met a farmer. Move away from the idea he is running around in a twenty year old landrover. Or that the tractor he has is held together by bailng twine. They renew much of the farm machinery on a rolling 2 or 3 years. They get exceptional finance deals from the finance houses rather than maintain the machinery they have. I know this because I dealt in that sector.

Oh, I know a lot of farmers.
They're not all rolling in it. Some are, but some have pulled back because the farm they grew up on, big enough to provide a good living for a family even 30 years ago, is now no longer viable.

Abra1t · 20/11/2024 21:24

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 20:42

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

  • it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well. Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

Excellent post.

KnittedCardi · 20/11/2024 21:27

@nonotanothernamechange24

Best reply I have seen on any of these threads. You have said it all. And well.

Kwiaenrker · 20/11/2024 21:31

Fiscal drag will mean more and more farms affected. This will destroy farming. Labour know this and they lied to farmers about it. Land will be bought up by the very rich / corporations....used for net zero probably, the jewel in labour's crown.

magicmee · 20/11/2024 21:34

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 20:42

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

  • it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well. Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

Excellent post, thank you.

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 21:35

KnittedCardi · 20/11/2024 21:27

@nonotanothernamechange24

Best reply I have seen on any of these threads. You have said it all. And well.

Thanks! It took blooming long enough to write and organise my thoughts.
Got fed up of repeating the same thing over and over. Debated setting it up as a new thread but won't for now.

KnittedCardi · 20/11/2024 21:40

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 21:35

Thanks! It took blooming long enough to write and organise my thoughts.
Got fed up of repeating the same thing over and over. Debated setting it up as a new thread but won't for now.

It really does upset me how little people understand about the rural economy. I am lucky. I live in an area surrounded by farms, farm shops, farmers markets, and buy as much as I can from the farm gate. Our farmers keep and protect the landscape, provide, in world terms, very good quality produce. I don't want to lose that.

notanothernamechange24 · 20/11/2024 21:45

@KnittedCardi I totally agree.

I'm not from farming stock. Nor do I farm. But I am rooted in my local rural community and know the value and importance of our farms.

It's scary how disconnected we have become from our food and how it is produced. It's become too easy for people. It's taken massively for granted.

justasking111 · 20/11/2024 21:54

The link I put above. The farmer has now put up a video. Her children have been treated badly at primary and secondary school because they're farmers. Her son was tied to a chair with a skipping rope by a teacher. Her daughter's driven to an empty farm and dumped at the gate by the deputy head. The wickedness of it all is mind numbing.

I'm not sure how to attach the video but will try.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/19Q4nRx6sx/

ArabellaScott · 21/11/2024 08:24

Re net zero - locally grown/produced food is surely more sustainable than imports?