To ask why you support the farmers, regarding inheritance tax?

[WheresFluffy]

Just that, really.
I'm interested to know why people support, or not, the farmers regarding the inheritance tax changes.

YABU - it's been done to death
YANBU - learning why people believe things is important.

The key word there is average.

No one took into account that some small land holdings are worth millions as the land prices currently stand.

I couldn't care less that Labour is in power, no party has my vote currently. I do care that they have managed to spin a huge amount of press in all forms of media to target farmers when the real culprits are the tax avoiding loophole wanglers are private investors.

Like I said elsewhere, farmers tend not to be party donors, they aren't wealthy enough, but private investors are.

There is nothing like a big loud noisy distraction when there are lots of unpopular policies to get pushed through. These are good days to bury bad news.

How does that help this farmer from the government's website:

Example 2: farm owned by one person

One person who owns a farm will be able to pass on land and property valued up to £1.5 million tax free to a child or grandchild. That is made up of their standard £500,000 tax-free allowance (£325,000 nil-rate band + £175,000 residence nil-rate band), and an additional £1 million tax-free allowance for agricultural property inheritance.

On the contrary, the argument about the average is statistically wrong, as per analysis, the distribution is usually and I think in this case too, pareto, therefore handful of people hold the vast amount, whilst vast majority are below threshold. Hence average seems high due to the large sums being added but most won't have to pay.

*well, not "handful" obvs, but a small percentage of the rest

I've been in the business.

I know this will disproprotionately affect small farmers the government shills are saying will come under the radar. Yes there are parts of the country where smaller farms won't be affected but there are plenty of areas that will and these people are not high income earners.

By all means tax the non-farming/barely farming private investors but the politics of envy have seen a weaker victim to put the boot into while the wealthy donor friends of all our governments slope off to make more money with some other avoidence scheme.

Sledgehammer nut cracking and a lot of fluff claims that it's only going to affect Clarkson and his kind. It's a big steaming pile of BS and I;ve stepped in enough of it to know it when I smell it.

Yep. And pp still going on like this

'This is a fuss about nothing, stirred up by people who are still annoyed that Labour won, landbankers, and tax avoiders.'

What a load of BS as you say. Anything to not hold Labour to account for bad policies

I would have a defined exemption scheme, for those who can demonstrate a multi-generational period of a family farm, who apply in a time period, and where there is a sell-on clause say within 20 years of someone inheriting. A close definition of family too, and given a short window to apply, this would be sorted out in almost all cases long before death.

Not for anyone else.

In general I would like to see inheritance tax reform, treating property separately from other assets.

I support them because I believe IHT to be pure theft. Nobody should be paying it - farmers, high value homeowners, low value homeowners - nobody. Once you have bought and paid for something, and paid all due taxes and God knows what other charges, it is your property to do with what you will, including leaving it in your will to someone else. It's nobody else's business and that includes the government. Scrap the whole thing.

@LlynTegid The system on offer is pretty generous. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/what-are-the-changes-to-agricultural-property-relief

You have to bear in mind that the farm property has actually given a massive non taxed financial boost to the Farmer throughout his lifetime. Imagine if your mortgage/rent, electric, gas, heating fuel, council tax, insurance were all taken care of before you get your wages. For an average family that will be a saving of well over £1k every month. So you could say over the course of a 50 year work lifetime on the farm, he has had £600k worth of pay untaxed. For it to be considered within the total amount of his estate is not unreasonable.

Yes that's £100,000 with 10 years to pay.
Many of these have no mortgage, can claim VAT back as business expense, could rent out land for camping, set up FBTs etc.

My son will leave university with a student debt of around 45000 just as a comparison (plus interest at 7%). He will need to pay rent and tax too.

Wilfred Emmanuel jones (the black farmer) is brilliant on this, he was on times radio earlier- -you have an asset that gives your opportunity.
-We are never ever going to get much needed reform in farming without getting the urban population on side and this war against liberal elites harms the cause.
-Farming is the least diverse and inclusive sectors in the uk and this is an opportunity to change that

more from him- https://www.bigissue.com/news/environment/farming-diversity-the-black-farmer/

People are right, farming is not a normal business. Farming is heavily subsidized. UK farmers currently receive 3.5 Billion GBP per year in direct and indirect farm subsidies as well as being exempted from IHT. The subsidies mean that farmers are already receiving large sums of money from the British tax payer (rather than the COA pre-BREXIT) so they can continue to farm even though farming in the UK makes little economic sense.

If farming was a normal business, farming in the UK would have largely ceased decades ago and the land used for other purposes both for profit and to convert for other public uses such as national parks, reforestation and restoration.

If the taxpayer is going to continue to subsidize the lives and livelihoods of a very small number of citizens then it is not unreasonable for the tax payer to want a return of some of subsidies after the farmer dies, in the form of IHT.

Alternatively, if farming in the UK is unsustainable without subsidies from the British taxpayer then should we still be farming in the UK or should the land be used for more profitable purpose (like solar farms or wind farms) and/or returned to public use to improve the environment for everyone? Essentially, what is the best use for the 3.5 Billion GBP of taxpayer moneys....keeping farmers on the land or using the land for something else?

No thanks due to food security and being able to buy local produce

And then what do we eat?

I had to pay inheritance tax on my father’s estate which was split between my Step Mum and Half Sister and myself. It was a house and some savings - the house obviously went to my Step Mum and Half Sister as did a share of the money, and I was left some money. It was a decade ago when the threshold was much lower, so it wasn’t a lot of money, it was mostly the house that pushed it over the threshold.

It was a gift to have received anything as a first marriage child, and I didn’t begrudge paying inheritance tax given my Dad has received treatment for his cancer for a few years before his death. I kinda saw it as paying back into the NHS who cared for him.

I feel that inheritance tax is essentially paying it forward to the next generation to receive the public services that you enjoyed in your life.

I think that everyone should play by the same rules on inheritance tax, and that it should be a level playing field based on wealth.

perhaps supporting the legacy of the NHS and public services should be seen as an act of kindness when we pass on?

I agree with you insofar as we need to be looking at more food production not less. Are our farmers producing this at good value for money with regard to the return on subsidies, I'd suspect not. I know you work in agriculture as did I in regard to sales into the farming community. I suspect you will have seen the wastage in machinery not cared or maintained. Very much in the knowledge that eg the quad bike is disposable, get a new one on the subsidy payment soon.

What did we eat pre 1984 when farmers were liable for IHT like everyone else?

There are lots of countries where farmers pay IHT- what do they eat?!

Just perhaps, if the farmers didn't vote Tory over and over and they had not voted Brexit they wouldn't be in this position. In fact the decline of much of the UK went all the way back to Thatcher selling off all our state assets, now in the hands of foreign entities. The only thing that remained as a constant benefit was staying in the EU. Of course this tax was bought in to catch out the Dysons and Clarksons who have only ever bought farms as family tax dodges. Without the parasite class pushing up the price of farm land, perhaps farms will fall in monetary value and fewer farms will be affected.

I don’t not support farmers however I think this issue is so overblown it will only impact the richest and why shouldn’t they pay IT every chuffer else does and honestly you never see a poor farmer. This is another blatant attempt by the right wing media to discredit a labour government same with private schools!

I have no skin in the game. It’s important for food security and sustainability. It’s also important to me that the standards of farming/ growing food remain as are or improve versus being more like in the US.

You should listen to some of the farmers speak on this, many were interviewed at the protest. It really is a huge problem for some, they gave good reasons and not as you list here

I dont want to use other countries for food. Particularly with Putin and Biden kicking off

I want to control our food prices to some extent

I don't want cheap shit full of chemicals or meat full of crap or fed crap from the US

Farmers are not cash rich. They have expensive equipment and land but that's like a doctor giving away a hospital or his drugs. You can't have one without the other.

I want to go after Amazon and Starbucks etc not pensioners and farmers and private schools. It feels vindictive

Lets use a multi generational farm spokesperson from tv news yesterday:

Again I suspect the general public will struggle to have sympathy with a young lady who is in line to inherit a £10m plus business. I said it earlier, but if in 100 years they were unable to make a business profitable as they claim. What the hell have they been doing.

https://morningporridge.com/blog/nations/uk/uk-farmers-trigger-the-revolution-politely/