Trainees no longer ready for workplace

[Kukcoo]

I used to love having trainees allocated to us. They were so enthusiastic, hardworking and a breath of fresh air. It was great to see them develop.

The last few have acted like they're doing us a favour if they turn up by lunchtime because they could have called in sick for nothing. Seriously can't be bothered doing the basics and expect everything to be done for them. Little respect for anyone else and the huge support they're being given. Won't meet a deadline, because this would affect their mental health and basically impinges on their human rights.

They all still expect to qualify and will be passed by the provider unless they do something truly dangerous, but they won't have the real experience or skills to join the workplace and get on with a job.

I'm barely even a different generation, but wouldn't have dreamed of acting the way they do when I was learning and felt I had to prove myself. AIBU to expect standards to be the same?

I actually think this has been going on for a long time. In the veterinary profession for years there have been students who refused to do farm placements as they disapproved as it went against their vegan principles. Some were not physically strong enough to deal with farm animals. Accused trainer practices of bullying . We had a a girls mum phone up and say but she is allergic to cats and can't be expected to treat them. Objected to doing on call etc.

Recently, I heard of a high class car showroom interviewing for Salespersons.
Applicants turn up with ripped jeans. Others wanted to WFH and couldn't get the idea that a salesperson in a car showroom needed to be present to talk to clients. Another couldn't understand why they may have to work weekends.

We had one who told one of the highly experienced partners, in front of a huge team of lawyers, that she was wrong about her application of the law on DAY TWO of her traineeship.

The partner was clearly not wrong. But that aside, I was astounded by the actual arrogance of this trainee. Day two!! She could barely switch on her computer!!

Teaching over the last twenty years has had very few pay rises.

It's not seen as a good option for graduates any more, indeed if it ever was.

Fewer and fewer people apply for pgces. I'm not involved in teacher training any more but on the grapevine my local Scitt has really really struggled to even fill the places.

The good graduates are not going into teaching. You still get a few who want to contribute back - and my area has quite a few career changers - but the working conditions are so bad that many drop out.

Everyone knows there's no benefit to working hard in teaching. You never earn decent money in it and the kids treat you like shit. That's why so many people are leaving or stepping back from SLT to classroom.

Ok - I’m a teacher and I mentor prac students. The university send them for placement. I hear so many horror stories, however, every single one of my praccies have been awesome. I love seeing them develop.

My complaints though are that universities are not teaching practical skills students need to become teachers, such as behaviour management, time management, how to read the curriculum, how to assess students etc. When I’ve asked my prac students what they do learn, they always say the same: that each unit they have to create a lesson plan to critique and then make links to theorists. Yes, it’s great knowing about Piaget and Vygotsky etc, but it seems to me that they’re repeating the same assignments over and over, instead of learning critical skills about teaching. Surely at uni, only one unit would be needed on theorists, maybe one for bloom’s taxonomy, one for creating lesson plans and unit plans, then start extending, rather than repeating.

The whole system needs an overhaul to be honest.

But us teachers have gone towards creating this mess. We aren’t allowed to fail students in the state I’m living in (I’m in Aus). So, a child who’d in the past have an F, will now be given a “N” (not enough evidence obtained to award an overall grade)…even though the reason there’s no evidence is because the student has not engaged in any work for the entire year because they don’t feel like it / their parents said they don’t need to etc.

Oh gosh, don’t get me started on the parents. Or school admin who remove a problem child from class to punish them with lolly pops and iPad time.

It will only get worse before it changes unfortunately…

I agree with this. There really isn’t any incentive to become a teacher anymore. This used to be a respected profession. When I was at school, if I had been a pain for my teacher, I’d dread the dreaded call home to my parents. These days, you only have to look at some students in the wrong way and they are calling their own parents to defend them.

If its a recent thing do you think Covid lockdowns has got a part to play.

It would have affected this age group in a way that another generation couldn't claim to understand..

There is now a lot of entitlement in the existing workplace as to how people who have had a taste of different working think that their preferences should be accommodated

I do agree with you that the level students are expected to attain at a younger age has increased from when I was at school and I was the last O level CSE cohort. I think rather than school attainment expectations going up to a level never seen before, it’s actually gone back to pre 1970s lax education levels but without the possibly to pursue a less academic route at a younger age for those, whose skills are in areas other than those taught in school. I think we should be looking at education systems, like France, which is a more similar model to the one, we used to have.

The CSE system was set up so that school education could be universally accessed for the masses. But it was massively flawed and the previous model with technical colleges from I believe the equivalent of year 10 so age 14 onwards gave real life training, not just maths and English, which is all that college offers before age 16. These were in place of the more academic route of school and offered real life work skills and in depth training alongside achieving qualifications in maths and English. Idk if this was O levels tbh despite my father attending one such technicial college for an apprenticeship. And these weren’t just for low academic achievers, these were for people, who like my father wanted to pursue a trade.

I think the reasoning for holding back on streaming kids is that 14 is considered too young. But for many waiting until 16 is disenfranchising a large minority of young people, who have been left to fail. Were they offered the opportunity to engage in something, which interests them in years 10 and 11, which let’s face it, are the most challenging years for all students including the less academically able, perhaps we would have fewer problems.

The more academically able and less academically able to a certain degree would be split from one another and not be a distraction to the other. I think a lot is made of the less academically able distracting the more academically able, which is in part an argument for the grammar school system. However, I think the same can be said the other way around because the less academically able see their peers achieving and don’t see the point in trying to achieve if they will fail. This is a massive disincentive for them.

I appreciate this doesn’t address the way the contract between parents and teachers has broken down or the entitlement of students. But at least a decent proportion of kids would feel less disillusioned and not like a failure at age 16. It must be soul destroying to be written off when not even an adult.

I am 25 (so early cohort of Gen Z), and I totally agree with you based on my own secondary experience (a private girls school if that makes any difference). Most of my peers never had a PT job, mummy and daddy picked them up from school and made their lunch, they would drop off forgotten homework / PE kit and choose their subjects. Christ one girl in year 7 couldnt even use a knife and fork at school camp, and another couldnt tie her own shoelaces.

My mum was a single parent who worked FT so I was left to fend for myself. I got a job at 15, I caught public transport and if I left my homework at home, then to bad.

I don't disagree with the general thrust of this thread but actually you did have ADHD, autism, OCD, anxiety and depression, they were just poorly understood, underdiagnosed and probably destroyed many lives as a result.

Teaching is absolutely a profession. Why on earth would you say it isn't?

Why do you think that mothers and veterans who are graduates are more poorly equipped to teach than anyone else? Most of the mothers I know are highly educated.

@ChannelLightVessel really? I'm always hearing that GCSEs and A-levels have got easier. Not saying you're wrong, I did mine in early 2000s and my kids aren't there yet. But my mum was always telling me how much harder it was in the 70s.

I’m in healthcare and we’ve noticed a drop in the standard of students but also in graduates both in terms of abilities and willingness to do the job. Our on -call and weekend rotas have constant gaps because no one wants to take ‘extras’ when in the old days most junior staff would take on these shifts to impress seniors and to earn more to pay for their mortgage etc, this lot say it would ‘negatively impact their mental well-being to work more’ and they would rather not work so the shift goes uncovered. I’ve even had a band 6 senior role tell me after I offered them the position following interview, that they would only take the job if I could write a letter to the transport office guaranteeing them a parking permit. Doesn’t bode well in a profession where you are meant to care for others more than yourself, and you are making demands for benefits or flexible working patterns that none of your colleagues or their bosses will have. It’s not the permit that is the problem, it’s the sense of entitlement that goes with it

Teaching is absolutely a profession. Why on earth would you say it isn't?

Because teaching does not have the degree and kind of self-regulation associated with a profession.

Why do you think that mothers and veterans who are graduates are more poorly equipped to teach than anyone else? Most of the mothers I know are highly educated

I never said this, nor do I think it. You've popped in the bit about being graduates. It was the spirit of the suggestion by government that there was this pool of expertise just waiting to be parachuted in to fill shortage areas. In the case of the ex-military, to instil better discipline. And no, they weren't going to be subject to the same training as the existing teachers. The ones for primary didn't even have to be graduates. Ditto for ex-military.

By the way, being highly-educated does not mean someone will be a good teacher.

My first essay on my pgce was whether teaching was a profession

It's very much a debatable subject (otherwise why set an essay on it)

Hmmmm. I think attitudes like that may be part of the problem.

This isn't my experience. As a teacher, I see (most of) our older students working hard to get the grades they need for uni - they're highly motivated, and they know what they need to do to get there.

We have also had some cracking trainees and ECTs recently. If anything, our younger teachers now are less of a pushover than I was 15 years ago!

I'm a maths teacher. Exams were certainly easier in 2000 then 1970, but they got much harder again in 2018.

What was the counter argument then?

Why do you hesitate to call teaching a profession?

I used to be a mentor to trainee teachers 15 years ago and there were loads of unqualified, unsuitable people being sent over (many of whom we sadly had to pass). It's not new, you were lucky to get good ones for so long.
We have always had some amazing people come as well, and I had two brilliant trainees last year for each placement.

I also work in a law firm and am involved in recruiting trainees and I agree 100%. The applicants who have had part-time jobs have great examples to give when asked the “competency” questions in the interview (tell me about a time you resolved a conflict etc.) and are able to demonstrate that they have the skills to be a good trainee (dealing with difficult colleagues / clients, juggling multiple deadlines, flagging when someone more senior has missed something in a sensitive manner). They tend to perform better in interview than the ones with multiple masters degrees but no real life experience.

Once they start work, you can tell who has had a “grunt work” type job and who hasn’t. We have had (mercifully only a few; most are hardworking and keen) trainees who play on their laptops during training sessions put on for their benefit, don’t bother turning up to mandatory whole team meetings and refuse to speak to anyone on the phone. They are paid over £50k per year!!

I also find it difficult when we are told we have to ignore things like candidates not looking you in the eye when they speak to you during interview as it might be because of a disability. I understand that, but clients expect lawyers to look them in the eye when speaking to them and to have a certain degree of confidence.

I changed careers (midlife crisis, I think), from a lawyer, to a uni lecturer while doing a PhD, and then went the whole hog and trained to become a high school teacher.

Teaching certainly is a profession.

Profession - dictionary terms: a paid occupation that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.

Teachers have a formal qualification and we have to engage in CPD. With teaching, we are hyper aware of not only own behaviour while simultaneously being aware of 25+ young people’s behaviour, triggers, additional needs, differentiation, class dynamics, assessment and reporting requirements, legal responsibilities, admin requirements, pressures from colleagues, curriculum requirements…

As a teacher, I need to be switched on….all….the…time. I have to make decisions - fast - and weigh up pros and cons and understand that every decision I make will impact 25+ students who all have different wants, needs, desires. I have to consider every word I say, as if anything is triggering to a student, or will upset them enough to tell a parent, the consequences are only mine to take the brunt of.

We have to act within very strict and rigid parameters. We have to do work, before we go to work, to come home and do more work.

We have to have understanding of legislation, curriculum, disability acts, inclusion, trauma, behaviour management. We are responsible for everyone….all…the…time. We have to behave with conduct, inside and outside of the workplace. We have to be trained in first aid. We have to adhere to some ridiculous demands from the government, the school principal, the parents, the students, society. We have to protect all our students as if they’re our own children, despite not even being trusted to choose a library book for a student. We have to have in depth knowledge of the curriculum and content we teach, and we need to explain concepts to 25+ students each class, who all have individual learning styles and needs.

We do all that, and so…much…more. In a system that is terribly broken, worldwide. Yet 99% of the population believe teaching isn’t a profession. We are glorified babysitters? What a kick in the guts. The level of dedication that myself and my colleagues dedicate to teaching surpasses the dedication I ever gave to my legal and academic careers, yet ironically, they are deemed a profession, yet come with half the work and half the responsibility. THIS is exactly why teaching is going to the pits. We aren’t respected by society. The knock on is that we aren’t respected by parents, thus this filters down to the students. Hence, we have 18 year olds who go out into further ed or the workforce, who have no respect for anyone or themselves, and their work ethic is poor. This is across pretty much every industry. DH runs a building company, the apprentices he gets are like princesses, who believe the world owes them.

I actually think it's pretty good thata people dont take extra work just to impress people, just how toxic is that to expect to work overtime just so someone looks good.
It should also not be an expectation to care for others more than about yourself!

I'm taking on trainees for the first time ever - I'm pouring so much of my time into the basics that I can't progress them.

I work in a professional services field and honestly I never knew it was going to be so difficult otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

Scared of picking up the phone, reiterating the same basic points over and over and over again. Minimum effort for maximum reward. Turning up late. Going home early. Turning up hungover.

Setting out targets and standards and getting nowhere near them.

I've created full training plans, literally lost weeks of hours of my own work for them having a total lack of self-responsibility in research/reading. There's not a proactive bone in their body.

I thought maybe one or two but ALL of them??

I work in ITT having previously taught in secondary. I can tell you we are so desperate for teachers that the entry quals mean we will pretty much accept anyone on to shortage courses. It’s then near impossible to fail them; we hold hands, prop them up, reduce timetables, give extensions etc etc. It is so frustrating because it undermines the profession and leads us into an endless cycle where teaching is seen as an option for anyone; it’s not, you need to be exceptionally hard working, have a certain level of subject knowledge and take a child-centred approach (many trainees forget this!). I so wish we could be more discerning and I also wish we could shift focus to the retention of our excellent teachers, as opposed to recruiting just anyone to fill gaps.