To highlight this case of voyeurism in what appears to have been a unisex toilet on private premises?

[BadSkiingMum]

I came across this case of a voyeur who placed phone cameras under the sink in a toilet. Note that this did not even make BBC news - this is on a local London website.

Women secretly recorded by south east London voyeur | This Is Local London

This was a toilet in a hairdresser, so not open to passers by and with the need to make a booking to enter the premises. So it would seem to be a low-risk environment. But unfortunately this did not prevent an employee from committing a crime. While the article is not clear that the toilet was unisex, presumably the offender was able to enter the toilet and place the phones inside because he was using it himself and was therefore unlikely to be challenged.

In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.

Pollyanna seems to be suggesting here that the safety , comfort and dignity of women and girls costs too much and takes up too much space . I disagree .
I am one of the women who wants (and now expects) single sex spaces , i.e. no men , however they dress nor whether they have removed their male genitalia . Even if I did not care I know that for many women this single sex provision is vital for THEIR safety , comfort and dignity .

The exact issue is the potential risks and harms of gender neutral toilets. Whenever they were created or built.

The OP states:

“In my opinion this case suggests that unisex toilets, even those which are in what we could consider to be a relatively 'safe' environment, present greater risk than toilets separated by sex.”

Sorry @ArabellaScott , I was trying to quote Pollyanna ...not having a pop at you .

There’s often a notice on female only loos (motorway service stations/supermarkets) to say ‘Male cleaners in attendance’, so unisex toilets really isn’t the issue.

I don’t think the fact it was gender neutral even mattered. He worked there, he could have gone in after or before opening.

But - whether the OP or the following posts made the link - it was still a leap.

They want the non consensual.

No fun for them if it's not an unsuspecting unaware woman

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/gareth-williams-ysgol-gyfun-glantaf-7141832.amp

It’s nothing to do with separate toilets. This happened in a school near me.

You seem very keen on interpreting what the OP wanted to discuss with a view to narrowing the scope well reduced from what the OP has stated on the OP and since.

You can assume the person's motives in the article all you like. Your continued statements that the discussion, which the OP is having in the OP and subsequent posts, should be limited to something that you, personally, wish to discuss is what is irrelevant to the OP.

It is male pattern behaviour that is the issue. It is why female single sex toilets were needed in the first place. And that need has definitely not diminished.

At the most basic level, I wanted to raise awareness from the level of risk being perceived as Nil - ‘This can’t or doesn’t happen’ to ‘Yes, there is a risk, this has happened and what, if anything, can we learn from it’.

I don’t need to question his motives, he wanted to be a pervert, I think that much is clear.

You seem keen to make a link between that, and trans women going into bathrooms you’d rather they didn’t. That’s your leap, not mine.

There is no connection between a perverted man being in a bathroom he was allowed to be in, and trans identifying people.

If anything it proves the point that men don’t need to identify as women to do disgusting things, many of them just do them. They’re not waiting for an invite into our spaces to behave in a certain way once they get there, they’d just do it. Like this guy did.

Do you genuinely boycott or not use the bathrooms in cafes, hairdressers, offices, any place you’d have to use a gender neutral toilet? Couldn’t be bothered, I need a pee, not an argument about gender with a cafe owner.

So many inventive ways to avoid answering direct questions.

I bet businesses like it, they get woke cookies along with cost saving.

When women start voting with their feet and avoiding them they may like it a lot less.

As others have said, back to the good old days where women's needs weren't a consideration.

None of this benefits women, yet according to you this is a good thing?

Because this place is chockablock with people who make transphobia their whole personality.

Yet not one person is doing that on this thread.

What makes you think that women expressing discontent at the removal of single sex spaces is transphobic?

Because what your post is telling me is that women's rights are deemed by some to be transphobic, I thought there wasn't supposed to be any clash?

So far as I can see what people are objecting to is unisex or gender neutral toilets having replaced women's single sex provisions in public places. No one is objecting to trans people, what we are objecting to is that these places mean that all males can access spaces which were previously reserved for women for very good reasons.

There is no gain to women from this change in provision, only increased risk, so naturally many women object because it's not right that women should be inconvenienced and put at risk because of this and it's really not right that some vulnerable women are now self excluding from these spaces as a result.

I have kept my discussion focused on 'male people' of any gender who have been involved in gaining access to female single sex spaces. Because it has been their campaigning that has meant the reduction of female single sex toilets. This involves any male person who is campaigning to access the space, for whatever reason, and who is entering the single sex spaces for what ever reason. Obviously there needs to be consideration for those who enter as part of their job.

Do you think that there is a special sub group of male people who should have access to female single sex spaces?

"Do you genuinely boycott or not use the bathrooms in cafes, hairdressers, offices, any place you’d have to use a gender neutral toilet?"

Would you like to point out where I have said this?

However, I do know people who do avoid these situations. I, personally, will seek out a single sex space where ever possible. I will avoid going out completely if I know that where I am going has no single sex toilets and I am caught by flooding issues. But, by all means, dismiss my concerns if it makes you feel good.

Did you miss the girls at schools in the articles linked up thread who are dehydrating themselves so they don't need to use the toilets because they are gender neutral? Do you think that this is an issue that MNers should be able to discuss?

"There is no connection between a perverted man being in a bathroom he was allowed to be in, and trans identifying people."

Actually, on this point, I think that this discussion rests on male pattern behaviour.

Since you are keen to keep the focus of this thread on males with trangender identities as you have posted about this now, perhaps you can link up the evidence that the group of male adult people in the UK, at any stage of transition, have a lower risk of committing a sex related crime than the general male population. Because this then relates to the risk needing to be considered for safeguarding female people. There are some very handy prison statistics that you can search for that will give you at least an accurate base to start with.

Actually, what is more important, can you show us where any group of male adult people in the UK have a risk level that can be considered to be the same or lower than female people in general in the UK?

My points relate to all male people who access toilets and female single sex toilets. You seem keen to discuss a particular sub group though.

It doesn't benefit women. It doesn't disadvantage them either. Putting a woman sign on the door or banning trans people doesn't keep oervs out of women's loos. It literally doesn't matter.

No one cares about woke cookies they care about space and cost. Most women don't care about this issue, the ones that do are welcome to not attend any business that has only one toilet for everyone to share.

Does anyone really care about this outside mumsnet? I've never heard any care one jot. They just have a pee in the facilities available and get on with their lives.

And yet, there is evidence already presented that it does disadvantage female people to only have access to gender neutral toilets. You just keep dismissing people's concerns and you also seem to be keen to limit the discussion to small business when that has not been the OP's points.

Of course it disadvantages women.

Piss on the seats and on the floor. Larger queues. We all know about the wanking in the cubicles etc. That's not to mention the increased risks to health, privacy etc. And then there is the increased risk of sexual assault, rape etc.

There are women who now self exclude, some sexual assault survivors and religious minority women being two groups who struggle. Take it that those minorities don't matter as much to you as male access?

As for 'most women don't care' are you fucking kidding me? Every woman I know cares about this. You are clearly in some form of echo chamber.

Clearly you live in an echo chamber too because all the women I know don't give a shit and don't understand hoo hah.

What's 'hoo hah?"

None of your female friends give a shit about the rights of vulnerable women?

Wow.

What's made them collectively put the wishes of males above the comfort and safety of women, I wonder?

I mean I honestly find that astonishing.

Where there are unisex toilets in schools girls are self excluding when on periods and making themselves ill and not drinking during the day and some other women think this is OK because ??????

What has happened to women to collectively think that this is acceptable. Women's rights have gone backwards.

Because that was the point all along. If it hadn’t have been, your series of questions for me wouldn’t have leant so heavily towards it.

The “there are men pretending to be women in my bathrooms” point is very very thinly veiled.

It’s also a bit late in the day for research and figures, tbh. So it’s quite unlikely I’ll be rummaging about for any.

I did see the link to the article about young girls self excluding. I saw it had the words “Kemi Badenoch” in the link, and then didn't click on it.

I don’t mean to dismiss anyone’s concerns. But the point is - they’re not shared by everyone. There are women, myself included, who just want to go to a toilet and move on with our lives. The constant debate about what benefits me as a woman, what doesn’t, who’s allowed there - it’s exhausting.

I personally am not represented by all of this. I don’t need to gain a toilet, because I haven’t lost one. I’d like to go to Costa, get an overpriced coffee, use their shared facilities, and get on with life.

You also seem keen on dismissing that the majority of women here really don't care about unisex toilets or believe that a woman sign on the door keeps pervs out or that it's clear there's a trans obsession on Mumsnet. You clearly don't care what the majority think though because you just, keep, going.

'Majority of women here'?

Where? Which women? Have you done any proper research on this or is it just your mates who are so progressive that you put men first and think that women's rights are so 'old fashioned'?

Jesus let go of the put the wishes of males above the comfort and safety of women! No one cares about the wishes of males here!

Unisex toilets are mostly about what is convenient for the business.

Everyone I know gives a shit about the rights of vulnerable women, they just don't think that locking yourself in a room alone makes you bloody vulnerable.

Shuffle off with your hyperbole it's boring.