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To support UK Farmers

1000 replies

TheHateIsNotGood · 16/11/2024 17:24

And due to KS's inability to face them in Wales today they are now thinking of going on strike. Because the govt are being too stubborn to reconsider how they apply IHT on working family farms. By all means close the loophole that allows the 'landed gentry' to take advantage of the agricultural exception but not with so blunt an instrument.

I was hoping to add a post to an existing thread but there isn't one despite it being headline news today.

OP posts:
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27
cardibach · 19/11/2024 18:41

RedPony1 · 19/11/2024 18:38

Its all crap. they are so far from reality its unreal.

Would you explain to me then? If that’s crap - in what way? What are the actual facts (with some evidence)?
Because as it stands I’m more likely to believe the government who would be in deep trouble if they talked ‘crap’ than a random on the internet who just says it’s crap.

StarrySkiesAtMidnight · 19/11/2024 18:54

ARealitycheck · 19/11/2024 18:39

But why the massive increase and what is being done to stop it? At the end of the day it is just a piece of land. It can just grow as many potatoes today as it did two years ago. Of course as the value of the land goes up, so does the cost of the produce to the consumer. It needs something to slow and stop the rise. This may be it, it may not. But one things for sure. It is not sustainable as the only winners currently are those buying agricultural land to resell at profit or use as tax breaks.

You can’t make more land, it’s a finite resource. So the little we have available has to be turned to a variety of uses - food production, housing, business, industry, energy production, army & defence bases, hospitals, cemeteries, roads, railways, airports, gravel extraction, water treatment etc.

Part of the problem is wealthy people buying up farmland as a tax dodge, but it’s also housebuilders buying land that doesn’t have planning permission in the hopes that one day it will.

Near me there’s a farm that is currently in the local consultation for expansion of the town. That farm was bought 20 or 30 years ago by a big developer who then leased it to the farmer for agricultural production. It’s never had planning permission. Angela Rayner’s call for sites has meant the local council now has to consider it. In the last 10 years the town has increased in size by about a third, all of it on previously productive agricultural land.

Plus, as well as the agricultural land disappearing to developers, as it gets buried under a layer of tarmac the water can no longer percolate through, so it runs off somewhere else, somewhere it shouldn’t be. That’s often other farmland which now has twice the amount of water trying to drain and so starts to flood which it never did before. Flooded land can’t be farmed. Double whammy.

Farmer’s can’t compete with Big Businesses, and those with the deepest pockets sets the price and buys the land.

TotteringonGently · 19/11/2024 18:57

porridgecake · 16/11/2024 18:00

I also worry about the effect on the climate with all the food we have to bring in from far flung places.

See also net zero. We are proudly decommissioning our oil fields and importing cheap LNG from Quatar. Fucking mad. Labout have known they would win that election for a good two years and this is really the best they could have come up with?

ARealitycheck · 19/11/2024 19:00

StarrySkiesAtMidnight · 19/11/2024 18:54

You can’t make more land, it’s a finite resource. So the little we have available has to be turned to a variety of uses - food production, housing, business, industry, energy production, army & defence bases, hospitals, cemeteries, roads, railways, airports, gravel extraction, water treatment etc.

Part of the problem is wealthy people buying up farmland as a tax dodge, but it’s also housebuilders buying land that doesn’t have planning permission in the hopes that one day it will.

Near me there’s a farm that is currently in the local consultation for expansion of the town. That farm was bought 20 or 30 years ago by a big developer who then leased it to the farmer for agricultural production. It’s never had planning permission. Angela Rayner’s call for sites has meant the local council now has to consider it. In the last 10 years the town has increased in size by about a third, all of it on previously productive agricultural land.

Plus, as well as the agricultural land disappearing to developers, as it gets buried under a layer of tarmac the water can no longer percolate through, so it runs off somewhere else, somewhere it shouldn’t be. That’s often other farmland which now has twice the amount of water trying to drain and so starts to flood which it never did before. Flooded land can’t be farmed. Double whammy.

Farmer’s can’t compete with Big Businesses, and those with the deepest pockets sets the price and buys the land.

I agree wholeheartedly that a multi faceted approach is required. I am also very well aware of the issues of building on land, I have argued against a similar scheme that will just move a flood problem for years. Certainly quality farmland should rarely be used, and it is something the public should argue against.

We have any number of falling down 'historical' buildings near me. As sad as it might be for these to be lost. Financially nobody will touch them with preservation orders intact. These make far better options for the population being demolished and turned into something useful.

Scrowy · 19/11/2024 19:02

cardibach · 19/11/2024 18:32

What do you all say to this?

That increasingly its looking like labour have done their sums wrong and MASSIVELY under estimated how many normal family farms will be caught up in this.

There's some suggestion that someone has got their acres and hectares mixed up when setting the IHT threshold limit.

The sum of 88 acres as being the average family farm has been quoted by a few sources but actually it is 88 hectares.

If RR has based her sums on 88 acres assuming that it would avoid upsetting your average Farmer Giles then I can understand why it seems like they are a bit baffled as to why so many people are pointing out that she's out by couple of million.

cardibach · 19/11/2024 19:04

Scrowy · 19/11/2024 19:02

That increasingly its looking like labour have done their sums wrong and MASSIVELY under estimated how many normal family farms will be caught up in this.

There's some suggestion that someone has got their acres and hectares mixed up when setting the IHT threshold limit.

The sum of 88 acres as being the average family farm has been quoted by a few sources but actually it is 88 hectares.

If RR has based her sums on 88 acres assuming that it would avoid upsetting your average Farmer Giles then I can understand why it seems like they are a bit baffled as to why so many people are pointing out that she's out by couple of million.

So many people assuming the government and all their advisors are stupid…

ImNunTheWiser · 19/11/2024 19:06

I'm sure. I imagine that whatever the actual profit, the general trend remains the same, so why would/could livestock farmers change tack to arable, as PPs suggested may happen. Not viable.

ImNunTheWiser · 19/11/2024 19:12

cardibach · 19/11/2024 18:32

What do you all say to this?

Let's take just one of those....

Estates of £3million....

The average cost per acre is approx £9,000.00. So an estate worth £3million (and that's just the land, not taking in to account the buildings or any plant owned) would be approx 334 acres.

The average farm in the UK is around 430 acres.

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2024 19:13

Scrowy · 19/11/2024 19:02

That increasingly its looking like labour have done their sums wrong and MASSIVELY under estimated how many normal family farms will be caught up in this.

There's some suggestion that someone has got their acres and hectares mixed up when setting the IHT threshold limit.

The sum of 88 acres as being the average family farm has been quoted by a few sources but actually it is 88 hectares.

If RR has based her sums on 88 acres assuming that it would avoid upsetting your average Farmer Giles then I can understand why it seems like they are a bit baffled as to why so many people are pointing out that she's out by couple of million.

I read the BBC 'factcheck' that said it had mixed up acres and hectares; surely to goodness this hasn't come from govt?

ImNunTheWiser · 19/11/2024 19:15

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2024 19:13

I read the BBC 'factcheck' that said it had mixed up acres and hectares; surely to goodness this hasn't come from govt?

Based on the figures they're bandying about, that kind of error would actually make perfect sense tbh.

derxa · 19/11/2024 19:17

ImNunTheWiser · 19/11/2024 19:15

Based on the figures they're bandying about, that kind of error would actually make perfect sense tbh.

😳

justasking111 · 19/11/2024 19:21

Farmers need to evolve, pig farming crashed decades ago here because the competition from abroad was so great. In Lidl I can buy 8 pork loin steaks for £8. Great price but tasteless.

I bought a small joint of pork with crackling from M&S a while ago because it was reduced. Stuck it in the air fryer.

OH my god the flavour in the meat was the pork I remembered from decades ago.

We used to keep poultry. Dispatching young cockerels now and again. There's no comparison taste wise to today's supermarket chicken.

When meat has a rich full taste you only need a small amount, whereas the tasteless meat described above you need to add flavour with chemicals in ready prepared dishes from the supermarket and if cooked from scratch a lot of added onion, garlic, herbs, spices. Just to make it palatable.

cardibach · 19/11/2024 19:27

ImNunTheWiser · 19/11/2024 19:12

Let's take just one of those....

Estates of £3million....

The average cost per acre is approx £9,000.00. So an estate worth £3million (and that's just the land, not taking in to account the buildings or any plant owned) would be approx 334 acres.

The average farm in the UK is around 430 acres.

I’m seeing 217 acres - 88 hectares
So not crap there.
Next?

Edit - I’m sure some sheep farms etc in Wales/Scotland are bigger, but I also doubt the land is priced as high.

To support UK Farmers
cardibach · 19/11/2024 19:30

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2024 19:13

I read the BBC 'factcheck' that said it had mixed up acres and hectares; surely to goodness this hasn't come from govt?

It doesn’t say that. I posted it above and have read it.

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2024 19:36

BBC article: www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o

samarrange · 19/11/2024 19:36

Coolasfeck · 19/11/2024 18:17

What I find interesting is that Hopkins, Farage and Nick Griffin, the self styled ‘patriots’ don’t believe patriotism applies to millionaires paying the same tax as everyone else.

I wonder if they think their ordinary followers will be rioting and throwing petrol bombs at police in support of Clarkson and Dysons children inheriting millions in tax free land and property?

The same people used the plight of the UK fishing industry to push Brexit. Fishermen voted for Brexit in far larger numbers than farmers. Then it turned out that they got absolutely fucked over. There's a mid-ranking Brexiteer named June Mummery, who was all about fishing, who has never forgiven Farage for this. Her Twitter is quite good value.

Chocso · 19/11/2024 19:36

Inheritance tax and all these punitive taxes on wealth is simply politics of envy

movingtoreading · 19/11/2024 19:38

You think we should feel sorry for the likes of jeremy clarkson cause this is who was talking today a person who admitted going into farming to avoid inheritance tax .
I don't understand if they are a business then surely the land is a business asset and they change ceo ? Are they not an ltd company

samarrange · 19/11/2024 19:41

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2024 19:33

Interestingly, the BBC factcheck piece quotes an 'independent tax expert'.

'Neidle was election agent for both Stella Creasy and Emily Thornberry,'

https://order-order.com/2024/11/04/bbc-verify-fails-to-mention-independent-expert-is-senior-labour-activist/

Creasy and Thornberry, both of whom could have been expected to be in the Cabinet given their extensive and prominent Shadow Cabinet roles, but are not even junior ministers. In other words, barely connected to the government, and probably harbouring one or two grudges towards Starmer. We could call it the Curse of Dan.

Now, which of his statements of fact about tax are not correct?

justasking111 · 19/11/2024 19:43

cardibach · 19/11/2024 19:27

I’m seeing 217 acres - 88 hectares
So not crap there.
Next?

Edit - I’m sure some sheep farms etc in Wales/Scotland are bigger, but I also doubt the land is priced as high.

Edited

Actually in our area of Wales, very poor land limestone with a few inches of topsoil but fine for the sheep if you've no other choice.

Our council put two fields on the local development plan for building. Which was plain daft because it was up winding roads with passing places, the cost of putting infrastructure like water, electric, gas underground very high . But the council were adamant. The farmer eventually got fed up with the harassment from the council and developers saying right I'll sell. There was a bidding war between developers. The scrubland was eventually sold. The homes were built. They were £100k more expensive than the average price for the area for four bed house because they overlooked fields so felt countrified 😁

Because of the winding roads, blind spots, speeding drivers, there were some nasty accidents in the mornings at work/school times. There were no pavements.

This farmer was blamed by some for selling fields, the media had a dig every now and again when there was an accident.

The poor man had thought all the fuss would end and the council, developers would leave him alone.

cardibach · 19/11/2024 19:43

Chocso · 19/11/2024 19:36

Inheritance tax and all these punitive taxes on wealth is simply politics of envy

It’s the politics of getting those who’ve benefitted massively from the flow of wealth upwards to do better for the community.

ARealitycheck · 19/11/2024 19:44

ImNunTheWiser · 19/11/2024 19:12

Let's take just one of those....

Estates of £3million....

The average cost per acre is approx £9,000.00. So an estate worth £3million (and that's just the land, not taking in to account the buildings or any plant owned) would be approx 334 acres.

The average farm in the UK is around 430 acres.

The average size is 170 acres.

cardibach · 19/11/2024 19:44

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2024 19:33

Interestingly, the BBC factcheck piece quotes an 'independent tax expert'.

'Neidle was election agent for both Stella Creasy and Emily Thornberry,'

https://order-order.com/2024/11/04/bbc-verify-fails-to-mention-independent-expert-is-senior-labour-activist/

That really doesn’t mean his tax analysis isn’t accurate. I haven’t seen any tax experts point out errors.

ARealitycheck · 19/11/2024 19:56

I just watched some of this piece from Good Morning Britain.

Not sure the farming community has really thought their champions through. Jeremy Clarkson who openly admits buying as a tax dodge, or the young lady in the above piece who along with siblings will inherit a £10m business.

While she is very eloquent and obviously knowledgable. I'm not sure the general public will have sympathy for somebody with a business of that value. If they in 100 years have failed to make it profitable as they seem to claim, the question must be why are they in business. I would suspect like most farms, if they are showing profit they upgrade a tractor or machinery whether needed or not. Farmers are kings of avoiding paying any tax, so i'm all for this.

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