To support UK Farmers

[TheHateIsNotGood]

And due to KS's inability to face them in Wales today they are now thinking of going on strike. Because the govt are being too stubborn to reconsider how they apply IHT on working family farms. By all means close the loophole that allows the 'landed gentry' to take advantage of the agricultural exception but not with so blunt an instrument.

I was hoping to add a post to an existing thread but there isn't one despite it being headline news today.

@juggleit trouble is it's not as simple as just going on strike. Too tied into contracts for that. And they can't afford to lose them.
Plus when it comes to livestock you can't just stop. Cows still need milking, sheep still need fed, seed needs planting. It doesn't just stop.

And the most important thing is getting and keeping public support. Nobody wants trouble
or conflict.
There is a rally in London on Tuesday. It's not a strike. And you know what because farmers fundamentally are food producers and want to produce food. They are planning the largest ever donation to london food banks on record.

Not a strike, a demonstration of what they do and that they care about food production and food security in this country.

''The current farmer pays taxes on income''

A farmer that pays taxes. 😆They would be laughed out the local auction mart. They would rather buy an unecessarry piece of equipment than part with a tax dollar.

In that case, would farmers accept that the farmhouse becomes seperate for the business. But rather than get it and the heating, lighting etc free gratis, they paid that market value into the farm business from their wages? As an example, large farm house in the cotswolds, what will it be in rent a month... £1k? More? Utilities, Insurance and council tax etc monthly...probably same again and more. All of a sudden there is £24k taxable income gone into the business. Cake and eat it comes to mind.

*NonComm
Interesting - but I understood that farmers can buy an insurance policy for the IHT so that you won't have to sell?

Imagine the cost of that policy if the farming Dad is 85???? It won't be* £500 per annum

But younger farmers can start planning and get it?

@ARealitycheck you do realise that a significant percentage of farmhouses have an agricultural tie on them so cannot be separated from the land and business of agriculture.

And if you want to start being pedantic about taxing the small benefit they get from the farm laying a percentage of the household expenses, then the farm needs to be getting a fair price for what they produce. A price based on the cost of production including the labour.
As has been repeatedly said most farmers are not taking much or any wage.

Farming simply does not fit into the mould of any other business. Hence why it's been treated differently. You want farming to fit that mould then the whole business has to change and that will mean massive price hikes for the consumer.

I'd guess any number of businesses have similar money tied up in their tools and equipment.

Have you any comprehension just as an employed sparky, plumber, joiner and especially mechanic they have tied up in hand tools just to go work for somebody else. That is before we look at the more specialist equipment the employer has.

Got a garage and do MOT's. expect to spend iro £10k annually just to keep up to date with the latest dvsa directive. That's on top of the initial circa £30k investment to get a testing lane and associated requirements in place.

Do mechanical repairs. Specialist tools and diagnostic equipment. Again £10k annually for an average garage and that's on top of the initial tooling purchase. The building, office and viewing station. Anything from eg £100k to any figure you could imagine dependent on location. A garage owner could easily have a million in assets that is worth diddly squat unless somebody buys it. Even as a limited company, if he tries to take money from the company on retirement, he is taxed on that.

This is the reason so many people now think farming should shoulder their share of financing the Country.

@ARealitycheck farmers have been subsidising the country for decades. They have done more than their fair share of financing you.

I hope you grow and produce 100% of the food you consume! If not you're quite literally biting the hand that feeds you!

Remove the running costs of a house and likely the car from a working persons wage and they would be jumping for joy at only having to pay for food and clothing even at reduced wages.

Little or no wages farmers? The general public aren't that naive any longer. Stick the money that is spent on farm subsidy back into the taxpayers pocket, and let the public set market value based on supply and demand. Willing to bet Farmers will be the losers.

Farming does need 'remoulding'. They long ago moved from being the farm down the road, to large financial businesses but want to retain the tax benefits of being a mom and pop small farm.

Oh dear @ARealitycheck you really haven't got a fucking clue! I'm embarrassed for you!!!

Let me use this as a very typical example of a local average farm.They produce milk for the local dairy and fatten lamb come spring for table. It is father and son. Employs around 5 or 6 men. In farm subsidy that farm in it's various guises receives over £500k subsidy annually. That is income above whatever they sell the milk, wool or lamb at. Can you genuinely hand on heart think that is a poor farmer?

This isn't a pick out of the biggest or best locally. It is bog standard average.

‘Employs around 5 or 6 men’
Tee hee hee

You haven't put in their costs conveniently. So it's impossible to say. But potentially yes.

I know of a farmer in similar circumstances who have been struggling to pay for school uniform for their child.

Electricity costs for running a parlour will be huge.
Maintenance costs and machinery could well be several thousand pounds a month.
Feed costs for dairy cows will be vast.
Running a dairy also requires significant manpower so wages and they are all going up.
Lamb prices have been 'ok' recently but in reality that = they are static. But agin feed costs have been rising. Shortage of straw has made matters even worse.

Seed, fertiliser, spray, fuel all will be in the tens of thousands.

So yes the outgoings could well be well over half a million.

So using your figures. If we were to say that the outgoings matched the subsidy. The money coming in from sale of milk, wool, lamb etc could be considered profit. Not a bad income at circa 1500l and at around 35p per litre of milk alone each day.

Lack of inheritance Tax is one reason land prices have risen so high as rich folk buy it all up for tax reasons. This might just cause land prices to drop and that will take more farms out of IHT.
Farming needs to be run without government subsidies. The small farmers on the marginal land are the ones who currently receive the least subsidy. It is all skewed towards the largest richest farmers to receive the most subsidy. Post WW2 a 5 acre holding provided an income for a family, there were mainly small farms. That is what we need to return to holdings of 5-500 acres not huge farms of thousands of acres.
Farmers can’t strike if they are livestock owners, arable farmers probably can for a few months as most fieldwork is now done.
I do farm and don’t support this action.

Well said. Interstingly, the average size of Farm in France in particular and a lot of Continental Europe is much smaller than the UK. Despite the UK having lower land mass.

The sale of WOOL 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Don't be so bloody ridiculous!!! It costs nearly 3 times to shear a sheep to what you get for wool!

And no I said well OVER half a million. The cost of producing milk is very close to what the farmers are receiving for it sometimes it costs more.

This IHT rise is going to affect the smaller holdings massively. We are talking farms if 100 acres (sometimes less). The largest farms will have more cash available and even if they do sell bits off what remains will still be viable.

Realistically you can't now make a living off less than 100 acres unless you have diversified away from normal farming.

Food security is more important.
( Although I’d rather see more arable farming as it’s a more efficient use of land )

I do not agree with IHT on farmers including large farms and rented out farm land.
We can’t have land sold off to pay IHT, we need it to feed the country.
Of note this inheritance tax will affect all of us if we lose our farmers because of it, which we will

OK lets use the 1500l milk daily as a starting point. Recent supermarket negotiations have seen prices rise to around 42p a litre. So on top of the subsidy this farm with dad and son and around 5 or 6 employees gets £230k.

We are now up to knocking on for around £750k combined. That's before the walking fertiliser lamb is sold for meat. It just to match it's cost to be profitable, and a great many do turn profit.

@Autumn1990 rich folk buying farms up to avoid IHT had massively helped the industry. Those farms are still farmed. They are rented out to those trying to get into the industry and who don't have a family farm to work on. They don't need the land to make money now so they let it out at very reasonable rates which gives folk a chance to get on.
Farming needs that. And a reduction in IHT is a price worth paying for the country to maintain food security.

rich folk buying farms up to avoid IHT had massively helped the industry.

With that you have just confirmed what I have been saying all along. If you are a tenant you should be gutted that you work the land for somebody else to make profit (rich people didn't buy it for no reason). Or you are one of those rich people who will be affected by inheritance tax levied at below the rest of the population. For shame!

They could sell up, yes. But that would likely be the end of the farm. I've lived in a rural area for 18 years and every local farm that has been sold in that time is no longer a farm. They only people willing and able to buy that land are wealthy horse people. People dont just decide to go in to farming, it's a way of life and knowledge that's passed down through generations. The implications for food production and security should be a concern to anyone in this country who needs to eat, especially in this era of escalating global conflict, climate change and overpopulation.

@ARealitycheck you're not understanding what I said at all! Go back and reread!

The landowners ARE NOT MAKING A PROFIT OFF THE LAND the tenant is!!! The only benefit of the land is when they die and it's passed on.

It literally gives farmers a foot hold on the farming ladder.
I personally know a farmer who rented land for about 15 years off someone who bought it for IHT purposes. He charged next to no rent. Giving farmer chance to earn a decent living. Then when things changed for landowner he sold the land direct to farmer at a fair price. Without it the farmer would never have got going. And he sure as hell wouldn't have been able to buy land.

@ARealitycheck I would dispute that any dairy farmer is getting half a million in subsidies each year. And if they are if will be for a specific purpose which is costing the farm a similar amount of money.
Subsidies are not a hand out they are literally subsidising prices for the consumer.

Quite right @Papyrophile
Huge swathes of farmland are already being built on in Kent.
Prince Williams 3500 homes for his new ‘Poundland’ ( my term, not his 🤣) is using up 320 acres then another 7000 homes nearby. We have over 17000 new homes locally all on farm land.
That’s even before farmers are forced to sell because of this stupid money grabbing Ill thought out policy of envy by Labour. Yet another one.
And no. I am not a farmer.