To think a child wanting to transition should be dealt as a mental health matter?

[Wronghere]

I want to start by saying I’m very liberal and believe that people should be able to live as they choose.

However, today on X, I saw a trans influencer state that she doesn’t think that children should be able to medically transition. They should have to wait till of adult age to be prescribed any hormone drugs. I completely agree with this and I was surprised to see the comments, most people were disagreeing with her.

As a mother of two children, if my child was showing signs of wanting to transition to another sex, I would first be getting them psychiatric help before anything and I definitely would not agree to them taking any hormone medication before they are off age. Am I in the minority opinion here ?

Completely agree. It used to be in the medical books I believe as mental health issue until all the doo gooders got involved.

instead of letting people chop up their bodies to match their minds why do t we try and match their minds to their bodies!

YANBU - I think this is actually the opinion the vast majority of people have they're just too scared to say so, especially online.

Am I in the minority opinion here ?

No. You are definitely not in the minority here.

They aren’t transitioning to anything though, they are still the same sex, maybe with some physical attributes of the opposite sex. Telling a child that they can is a lie.

I know an adult who ‘transitioned’ and discovered that despite the surgery and drugs, wasn’t a woman. Mutilated their body for a lie.

While I think plenty of assessments should be done before any transitions begin to take place, if at all, I do believe that it's unfortunate that the genuine cases have to wait until they are "of age" before they can start taking any kind of hormones, you know, after they've already started going through puberty? It's going to make it a lot more difficult for them to present as passing with the opposite genders hormones already in their body.

At the same time, I also think the vast majority of people who believe themselves to be transgender have other underlying problems and mental health issues and that "trans" is just an easy out.

I would like to see how the younger end of this are exposed to the ideology.

That’s exactly what happens. You get referrer to Camhs. Who then refer you to Tavistock of they think it’s needed. Then you wait for years. And then you are assessed and then possibly you get hormones. It’s not like you just nip to the gp!

You know one person it didn’t work
out for . I know dozens who are so much happier after transition.

They may think they've "transitioned", but they haven't changed sex.
You know dozens?

I think many would agree with you because of experience with adolescents with mental health issues, comorbidities and hyperfixations. When previously detransitioners were barely heard of, there are now so many coming out of woodwork wishing their mental health issues were dealt with first.

It will also depend on CAMHS professionals and their beliefs.

Some will send application to gender clinic behind parents' back even if the adolescent is under 16 and is presenting multiple issues, some will take slower approach.

This is exactly the most sane response in 99.9999% of cases.

How on earth have we got to this stage where kids are validated by grown adults and even educators to think they’re foxes and badgers or the opposite sex or no sex! Madness.

It's a difficult one. I think in the (relatively rare) case that an under 18 wants medical intervention, puberty blockers are a good solution that buys time and I don't invite went people seem to complain that most people who use them go on to transition; maybe that suggests they're being prescribed to the right people (in England it was barely 100 young people in the whole country pre temp ban coming in).

I am trans supportive, have a non binary child and other close young trans family member, but I recognise there is a risk, with the first generation to see so much through the lens of gender, that a child or young person experiencing a mental health crisis could see transition as some sort of answer to their problems. But there's no evidence that medical professionals are handing out transitions easily, quite the opposite.

I think one should - sensitively - probe feelings while allowing the child to be affirmed in the gender identity they want, and all that means is social transition There's some idea that gender affirming means offering medical intervention straight away or something, which is totally untrue.

I know quite a few trans kids and about 25% of them so far have detransitioned after 1-3 years while having had supportive family and friends who affirmed them. None of the trans kids I know have had medical intervention or are showing signs of wanting it with most of them now in their late teens and having identified as trans for at least 3 years.

Puberty blockers do not, in reality, buy time. It has been widely reported in different countries that nearly all those children on puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones. In light of this, it is harmful misinformation to state that they 'buy time'.

They also cause issues such as bone density issues, they have been found to cause calcification of the testicles that permanently damage testicles, and there is evidence of loss of memory and IQ point have lowered when on these drugs as a child.

But wouldn't it be better for their physical health if they could find a way to be comfortable with their bodies without having to make changes that are detrimental to the way their body functions?

How is this different to saying that people with anorexia are happier when they can control their weight? Surely self-acceptance as we actually are is what we need to aim for?

Unfortunately most therapists/psychiatrists/counsellors are captured by the ideology, seeking psychiatric help would probably just lead to professionals affirming their identity thus enabling them

Here is Dr Cass' final report - stating there is not enough evidence!

cass.independent-review.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/The-Cass-Review-Interim-Report-Final-Bookmarked.pdf

here are some links regarding bone density:

Bone Health in the Transgender Population
Published online 2019 Jul 2.

Micol S. Rothman and Sean J. Iwamoto

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6709704/

This

Also unknown are the long-term effects of puberty blockade, the effect of changes in body composition and the optimal type, timing, dosage, and route of administration of GAHT for bone outcomes.

Conclusion
The results of the studies that reported impact on the critical outcomes of gender dysphoria and mental health (depression, anger and anxiety), and the important outcomes of body image and psychosocial impact (global and psychosocial functioning), in children and adolescents with gender dysphoria are of very low certainty using modified GRADE. They suggest little change with GnRH analogues from baseline to follow-up.

And

GnRH analogues are frequently employed to provide puberty blockade in adolescents with gender incongruence or gender dysphoria. From their use in other medical conditions such as prostate cancer, their deleterious effects on the bone are well known, although these have the potential to be reversible if treatments are stopped or add back therapies can be given

And

However, Z-scores in the trans boys also showed an expected drop during GnRHa treatment. Similarly, they did not fully make up their bone loss as Z-scores at age 22 were still lower than baseline

Meaning, the authors acknowledge little is known about the lasting effects of puberty blockers. In this study, they propose some positive effect from cross sex hormones for females but ths results show that it doesn’t really make up the loss from puberty blockers.

PLUS

Just adding this piece about bone density for young transitioners here:

https://segm.org/the_effect_of_puberty_blockers_on_the_accrual_of_bone_mass

1st May 2021

Dr Michael Biggs (an advisor to SEGM) has been calling for the release of data from the Tavistock’s experiment since 2019. A subset of the data were finally released following the judicial review into puberty suppression at the Tavistock clinic. Biggs’ reanalysis has just been published in the Journal of Paediatric Endocrinology and Metabolism. It finds that after two years on GnRHa, the Z-scores for a significant minority of the children had declined to a level that should trigger clinical concern.

PLUS

A documentary on the Dutch Protocol which has been heavily criticised as creating treatments that were actually not found to improve life's outcomes for children and adolescents as people had been previously led to believe

There are currently almost 3,000 young people on the waiting list for gender care in the Netherlands. They are vulnerable adolescents who are frequently subjected to discrimination. Many of them suffer severe mental distress. Doctors at the gender clinic in Amsterdam are pioneers in care for transgender young people. The treatment developed here years ago is now used worldwide. Now, criticism is growing. International experts are questioning the scientific evidence put forward by the clinicians in Amsterdam. Zembla investigates the Dutch transgender protocol.

What this covers is that no gender clinic has been able to replicate the results of the Dutch paper. One patient of the group died due to the surgery complications of gender surgery and even de Vries questioned why no one seemed interested in that patient while accepting the study. Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala (Professor of Pschyiatry, Tampere and who set up gender clinics) and Mikael Landen (Professor of Pscyhiatry, Gotenberg) and Dr Angela Samfjord (Head of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the University of Gotenberg ) all are interviewed about the quality of the study behind the protocol and its flaws that became apparent later. Ie. The 55 patients is so small and de Vries acknowledges that they are not really similar to todays cohort of adolescent transitioners. That only 32 filled in the survey with positive results. The others were not chased up and one died.

Gerard van Breukelen, a professor of Methodology at Maastricht university goes on record to say that the methodology of that initial study was weak. There was no control group so the conclusions should not have been considered as strong as the gender clinicians claimed. Other academics declined to be interviewed due to fear for their employment as it is such a contentious issue. When talking to de Vries, she mentions that many more studies have been done by other countries now. And the doco makers mention that all those studies de Vries refer to have stated that the evidence is low quality. A Swedish team led by Landen was asked to do a full review by the Swedish government and he confirms that the evidence was just not there. Hence the Swedish government withdrew treatment.

The mention the Cass review and discussion ‘locking in’ of identities contradicts the ‘time to think’ narrative. They interview three transitioners. One detransitionered before surgery and one is happy with transition but not with the process the team followed. The one who detransitioned was put on hormones despite not even socially transitioning as he felt wearing a dress was ‘a man wearing a dress’. But was put on hormones but didn’t go through surgery after all. It also wraps up with Lucy who was stuck on the waiting list and who believes that if she was given PBs, she would not have ended up transitioning. She has obviously detransitioned now after double mastectomy and testosterone, then ovaries and uterus removal.

And this documentary discusses this below.

The newly released peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

Well I'm glad that there is a TRA who is NOT advocating for child transition.

Whilst children should not be put on puberty blockers post Cass there are unscrupulous people who are making them available online.

And certainly in the USA children younger than 12 have had body parts removed.

One day the world will look back in horror at this medical scandal.

Until children stop being fed these lies by adults who should know better the best thing to do is to seek out mental health support, first ensuring that the person who use for help isn't also going to indocrinate your child further.

One day this insanity WILL end.

I would assume my child had been indoctrinated online or at school if he announced he was a girl. Hopefully by the time he does go to school we will have moved away from the fictional concept of human beings changing sex.

Echobelly: an under 18 wants medical intervention, puberty blockers are a good solution that buys time.

Good grief! Puberty blockers do not buy time! They are tantamount to child abuse.

Interesting discussion. I read the Cass review when it was published and it seemed well written and very reasonable.
One thing that really resonated with me was when Dr Cass pointed out that there isn't a female or male brain which is something I have always thought so I was glad to see it has scientific support. So no-one can really say they have the wrong brain for their body.

Mental health awareness and services have made the problem far worse IME.
A local autistic girl had years of identifying as different things alongside some very difficult MH issues. CAMHS offered zero support throughout despite suicide ideation and 1 attempt - all normal for autism apparently.

The day after she identified as a boy, aged 13, she had an emergency appointment, referral to GIDS, her parents felt pressured to go along with their daughter’s sudden trans identity (having had several intense transient identities over the previous years that CAMHS ignored). Two years later, thankfully no puberty blockers, and the girl predictably grew out of this phase, but the social transition added to her difficulties massively. It was not in any way helpful to her or her mental health, yet this was the only option of support that was offered to them.

What needs to happen is what happened in the years running up to the mid 2010s when all this madness took off.
“Mummy I think I’m a boy”
“Well you’re not, let’s go out and play football in the park”

Those who persist (iirc it’s around 10% of cases) refer for specialist help. If they choose to transition they can do so as adults with full facts available to them, rather than the current cherry-picked rose tinted spectacles approach that teaches little children that boys can choose to be girls and vice versa, and that anyone who questions it hates them and wants them to die. That right there is the problem.

Transition is a word misused. You cannot ‘transition’ into the opposite sex.
Dozens? Unless you specifically work in this area then you should not know dozens of people with gender dysphoria, unless it’s a social contagion.

Part of the problem is that you no longer need to have gender dysphoria in order to be trans.

YANBU. It's not a child's identity to be trans any more than someone covering their tv with tinfoil because the Russians are spying on them or that they are Julius Caesar are identities. It's not an anorexic's identity to be a fat person. Delusions shouldn't be colluded with albeit the person suffering from them needs compassion and kindness. Not enabling.

This right here. Let's go back to the 1970s and children being "free to be you and me." Boys playing with dolls and women being what they want to be career wise.