to not get the emphasis on friends in children's TV?

[igglepiggle599]

Not a complaint as such - more a point of curiosity.

Whenever I watch CBeebies or similar with my toddler, I'm always struck by the obsession with friends and how important they are, how they're the most important thing in life, etc. Think Mr. Tumble and the friends song, the song words in various programmes about never being alone when you have friends, the Chuggington stuff about how being with friends is the best thing ever. It's everywhere, and constant. There's always a heartwarming moment at the end of every show where somebody concludes that their friends are the most important thing in their life, or whatever.

I feel like I should be saying how I get what they're trying to do, but...I just don't! It seems like an emphasis that really rubs the joy of friendship in the faces of all the children in the world who struggle to make friends, whether because of disability, not having been taught appropriate social skills, being isolated, introverted, academically ahead or behind, or simply because they have an unusual personality.

Surely it would be more constructive to put the emphasis on being kind and accepting? These are positive character traits that most parents want their children to have (and traits they would wish their children's peers to have). The concept of 'friends' is more of a social label/position that doesn't really say anything inherent about desired behaviour.

Don't suppose anybody can shine any light on this?

Just going to recommend watching Pablo on iplayer. Thoughtful show featuring an ASD boy.

I remember that one! We don't seem to have caught it much but it seemed like a really interesting show.

I agree with PPs that this is an interesting discussion! I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree but I'm following with interest.

I agree that often kids' TV gives an unrealistically harmonious portrayal of friendships- I get that it's intended to model good behaviour, but I can imagine some children watching and worrying that their friendships aren't as smooth sailing. I highly recommend Kiri and Lou on iPlayer for a more realistic take. The characters' friendship is important, but they often get things wrong by being selfish, unkind or taking more than their fair share of something, and then learn how to put things right. It also deals with other issues relevant to small children, like being self-conscious or getting stressed. Plus, Jermaine from Flight of the Conchords voices Lou 😁

It s probably another way to pull children from their parents influence and ingrain the idea that friends are what really matters earlier and earlier. Never realised that about those cartoons,thank you for making me aware!

Not sure I agree as I personally have no doubt that the intentions are good. I think encouraging children to try to make friends is essential; encouraging them to believe that friends are essential for one's worth as a person, less so.

Just a last ditch addition: is there any evidence that children need to be encouraged to make friends? Haven't human beings been creating relationships, completely unprompted, for as long as they have existed?

I think it’s right to focus on the ins and outs of social relationships if that’s what’s important for the age range watching. But they could stop singing about how friendship is the be all and end all of happiness.

Maybe Mr Tumble could write some songs about how you might find it easier to be around other kids if you join a structured activity with a shared common interest so you don’t have to chat and make eye contact until you’re ready. Make that into a cute rhyme!

Sorry to hear this! I hope she finds some kind children as she gets older.

I have a few people on the spectrum in my family and they often found that they gelled most with older (because of the more advanced interests that ASD kids often have) and younger children (because their emotional level was a little bit behind in some cases) than children their own age.

it only gets worse! Teenagers are bombarded with images of big social groups all getting along fabulously. I do not know a single adult with a big 'friendship group' and they often cause untold misery ime.

There certainly wasn't the same "friend" and emotional obsession in older kids tv from a couple of decades ago or longer.

The original Thomas the Tank Engine was brilliant for portraying "difficult" relationships, i.e. the almost hatred between steamies and diesels, the stroppy Cranky Crane, the Fat Controller who always had to restore order and make the engines behave and apologise for bad behaviour, etc. Real "education" about different character traits, different behaviours, etc.

Also far more purely "instructive/informative" stuff like Come Outside with Auntie Mabel and Pippin dog - no "emotional" stuff, just factual "how does this work" etc.

Its aimed at pre school children most of whom won't have friends aa such they will be learning to make friends at nursery, yes of course some children struggle with this and Cbeebies do try to be inclusive,even children with disabilities can make friends ,my son is severely autistic non verbal etc he's 14 whilst he doesn't have friends in the way that most people imagine, he gravitates to the people he likes most.

Good point! I guess an advantage of the message is that it's saying 'Everybody CAN have friends' as well as 'Everybody SHOULD have friends'.

Mm. I don't think the message is 'this is what you should expect from life' as much as 'this is how you should try to behave towards other people'. It's interesting that people read it as signalling something they should receive rather than give.

To be honest I think portraying friendship as a positive thing is important at the moment particularly. There’s so much propaganda at the moment from the introvert contingent (on here and elsewhere) around the idea that friendship is “too much drama” and people are better off living as hermits.

It’s true that some children struggle with it and can be sad and difficult and needs sensitivity but surely it’s better to model the idea that friendship is a) something that needs a bit of work and b) positive.

Part of learning social confidence comes from what parents model at home. If the parents are socially comfortable the children are likely to follow. If parents are freaked out by any social interaction and cocoon themselves in the family unit (as a lot of people seem to do these days) children are likelier to approach this from a place of fear.

If there’s a counter-narrative on tv underlining that friendship can be good for you that can only be a good thing.

I think everyone is happier with friends, though?

And my nearly three year old is very sociable and very into friends, they're an important part of his life, and this is a key age for social skills. He recognises himself and his friends in what he sees on TV. I mean, it drives me mad, but Bing has episodes about friends falling out, name-calling, not getting to do the same thing that their friends do, etc.

I also think friends are important plot devices. Continous characters that the toddlers care about. DS can name all of the Octonauts, he talks about them, he wouldn't be as fussed about a random one he didn't know. He lost interest in Paw Patrol when they added a load more random dogs.

It's interesting that you specifically mention Mr Tumble, because the whole premise of that show is that anyone can be friends, and we should make sure everyone is included, and everyone can be kind. That seems like the messaging we should encourage?

But I'd also say that DS is really good at involving people and often plays with a non-verbal girl in the park, and it's probably through watching things like Mr Tumble that they both know the sort-of universal actions and gestures of friendship so they both know what they're trying to do. Because at 2, friends means that they play together and talk; not that they're going to be lifelong friends.

Very true, the extreme introversion thing annoys me a bit as well (and I doubt whether it's actually sincere in a lot of cases). I guess it's about finding balance!

I am really enjoying this discussion! I wonder if it's just that there's a lot more choice, and in order to get us to watch stuff, creators have alwyas sold us an ideal. So to get us to watch their stuff over other stuff, everything ends up being focused on an ideal?

Possibly - I haven't thought of it from that angle. It strikes me, though, as more of a broad cultural thing. I guess I'm referring less to the actual plots of children's programmes and the more incessant, less obvious aspects.

An example that made me laugh lately was an ad for Lou and the Bally Bunch. I don't have anything against the show, but there was a song in the background where literally the only words were 'Friends are great!'. 😂

Aww, he sounds lovely!

Yes, positive portrayals of friendship are always a good thing. I guess it's also important to not slip into implying that if you're 'good' and 'kind' you'll always have friends, as many kids unfortunately struggle despite trying their best!

I instinctively wanted to disagree with you OP but the more I think about it, the more I agree.

I am thinking of dd watching My Little Pony, so fixated on friendship and so saccharine it was almost unwatchable at times.

But then again we loved Charlie and Lola - a more balanced view of a sibling relationship with its own wobbles, but mostly about fun and creativity and the little dramas of childhood, not friendship. Fabulous. Much less likely to give you a toothache!

Oh and even the adventure shows like Dora the Explorer are ludicrously over-sugared with the friendship obsession!

(the film version is great though, when your kid is old enough to enjoy a spoof!)

I haven’t watched CBeebies for a few years now but it sounds like it hasn’t changed much and this was how I saw it.

The programmes are very inclusive and I found the overriding messages were basically about kindness and acceptance of differences. I think various kids tv shows across different channels did a ‘befriending a child who is new or struggling to fit in type of storyline’.

I think much of it is teaching children how to be a good friend and value people who are kind to you rather than how to get friends.

DS (ASD) is an adult now and has always found friends a bit over rated - he loves alone time. I grew up watching the show 'Friends' and was absolutely desperate to have what they had (never happened). I was also desperate for ds to have lots of friends and really pushed my own agenda.

Now I'm older again think he was right all along. Friends are nice but they come and go and have their own priorities, their own agendas and can often be pretty fickle and self absorbed. Then they move house/get a new job/meet someone they like better and you never see them again!
Now I'm good with friendships that are light and fun and probably not for long. I think kids tv is far too keen to portray friends as being the people that cure you of any and all unhappiness - or even the people who you rely on to save your life!

The idea of 'community' in many kids tv shows is also often incredibly unrealistic. Where everyone know the local postman/fireman/train driver/policeman/everyone who lives where they live. It's the same with adult tv if you think about the soaps for instance but obviously required for the plot and as others have said for kids/adults to get to know the characters.

And don't even start me on pets! Who (my age) didn't want a dog like Lassie and think their dog must be a be of a rubbish one? Then I graduated onto wanting a dolphin like Flipper......

The information that you are missing out on great friendships/communities/pets starts early on tv. And then kids graduate onto SM and have it even worse there!

The media in general is like this with adult friendships too. Lots of "partners come and go, friends are for life" when actually for me the reality is "friends also go and get their own partners/demanding jobs/have kids or adopt/look after their elderly parents but it's nice to occasionally catch up".