Adult daughter relationship with mother

[Axelotolsarecute]

Just looking for other views on this, especially from those with adult children.

I hadn't the best childhood for many reasons. I have had extensive therapy and dealt with this. Some of my childhood was difficult due to my parents marriage, my mother being largely absent emotionally. As an adult I understand this, however it did impact me as a child. As I said, I've dealt with this myself, never confronting my mother, she's old now and I don't want to upset her.

Fast forward to now. I'm in my 40's. I decided to divorce DH for many reasons, emotional neglect being one. My mother will not accept my reasoning and support me. Every phone call is loaded with her disapproval, she said DH is like a son to her and seems to be taking his side, he meanwhile is sitting there looking like he had f**k all to do with the marriage breakdown.

I've been lectured about staying with him for the kids that that's what she did. He's not beating me so what's wrong with me. I long ago decided to never have it out with her about my childhood but I snapped and said her and dad shouldn't have stayed together for us kids, it damaged all of us. But oh no, she's going on and on, judging me and practically looking at me with hate. So I've gone no contact for now.

At this stage I feel, I'm an adult woman, a mother, that she has crossed my boundaries for the last time. She's always been too involved with her kids personal lives, she did something similar to my brother.

Some family are telling me, oh you'll miss her when she's gone, I'd give anything to speak to my mum, it's so hurtful when a child doesn't speak to a parent etc. It seems she has free reign to speak to me as she wants and I'm wrong.

I feel everyone is on my back, I've no support.

I'd be interested in other mum's who have adult kids and their opinion on this.

I know I'm not being unreasonable, my family are toxic at times but I'd appreciate any views, support or advice.

I gave the link above but here it is again https://learning.nspcc.org.uk/research-resources/statistics-briefings/child-sexual-abuse. I think the OP has behaved admirably but other comments are quick to suggest estrangement and my experience is that estrangements are just as much due to the adult child’s behaviour as the parents/grandparents. The overuse of this word “toxic” doesn’t help. Instead of looking to resolve issues as adults “toxicity” is used as a word which puts all the responsibility for estrangement on the one party.

That's a link about sexual abuse and not adult child estrangement? I don't think OP has suggested there is any sexual abuse in her circumstance?

Abuse comes in many forms, other than sexual, as I'm sure you know if you've worked in this field.

To pick up on this point in your message .
Instead of looking to resolve issues as adults “toxicity” is used as a word which puts all the responsibility for estrangement on the one party.

In my situation, which sounds not unlike OP's, every time I tried to address issues with my mother she screamed and shouted at me, belittled me, mocked me, denied what I had said, refused to take any responsibility.When my children got to teenagers she started treating like them like that as well. I call my mother toxic because she is. I have tried and failed to resolve the issues. As has OP. I value my mental health (and that of my children) too much to try again. Incidentally my mother has made no attempt to resolve issues since I went NC, so I guess she doesn't care much either.

I don't believe that most adult children become estranged over a single incident and without trying to redeem things. When you said you had studied this, I was hoping for more info of your findings in this area, but sounds like you were more involved in looking at sexual abuse.

• I’m so sorry about your personal situation which must have caused you a great deal of grief. Also apologies as the link I sent was in relation to another post where she had raised the issue of sexual abuse. By studying the subject I meant I’d done some training not that I’d done my own research, I’m not qualified enough for that! Here’s a link to Joshua Coleman, a Californian psychologist who’s a real expert in this field and is used by British parents/grandparents heartbroken by their estrangement. He writes books, does counselling, direct work, training, webinars etc and there’s certainly a lot of demand for his work. Some of his stuff is free but others quite expensive. One of his sessions is titled ESTRANGED GRANDPARENTS: A Silent Epidemic of Grief. There’s clearly a lot of parents/grandparents willing to put in much time, effort and money to reconnect. I don’t think for a moment they’re all failures as parents. That was my view when I met some as volunteers, totally broken individuals who couldn’t understand how their world was turned upside down. Usually just one child who’d rejected them though sometimes an only child. I’m not trying to negate your or anyone else’s experience of a traumatic family relationship I’m just saying that on other occasions it can be the adult child who’s the more challenging individual. With others it’s a combination and people should think extremely carefully before employing the nuclear option of estrangement. Joshua Coleman was mentioned in the Guardian article which someone had posted up earlier today.

I am sorry this thread has been hijacked by someone with an axe to grind. Nothing tgat poster has said is relevant to OP’s specific situation. A general statement “sometimes parents mean well” or whatever coffeelover thinks is the case doesn’t have any significance in a specific situation such as OP describes. OP would like to be shown loving, support and respect from her mother during her divorce. This is just not what her mother will or can offer. So OP is fully justified and, indeed, well advised to stop prioritizing her mother’s wants over OP’s need.

Stop derailing the thread.

Sorry I forgot the link https://www.drjoshuacoleman.com/speaking

@Coffeeloverme you cherry picked on fact out of the list of possible reasons I gave where adult children might consider estrangement and picked at it. I said that in spite of very many circumstances where adult children might consider estrangement’s it is still relatively rare. People simply do not estrange for small reasons.

You are still completely focussed on why a poster should doubt her own experiences.

Dr Coleman is a man who experienced estrangement and is absolutely incapable of hearing his child’s side. Have you experienced estrangement? You seem to find it very difficult to understand why people might choose it.

I’ve given my views on OP specific situation and the mature way she’s managed it. Lots of posts rather ruthlessly said “she should ditch her mother” so posts pointing out the complexity and dangers of estrangement are in order. I’ve never said anything as crass as “Sometimes parents mean well”. Other posts have asked me to justify what I’ve said which I’ve tried to do. That’s debating not “derailing”.

Just to clarify, there was absolutely no sexual abuse in my situation. If there was, this wouldn't even be a discussion for me.

It was emotional, mental and neglect. The impact of which followed me into adulthood and impacted me in so many ways. Thankfully I've been able to work through it with the help of a great therapist and I refuse to let this impact on my children, well as much that's in my power to control.

As things stand, I am NC with my mum and I haven't heard from her either. Apparently she has said that I know where she is. I am deeply hurt and I think this is the final clarification that my mum is not there for me unconditionally, she doesn't have my back. I think as someone said, I am grieving and have been grieving the mother and daughter relationship that I always wanted.

I know in my heart that while I might not like or agree a decision my kids make in the future, I will have their back. To me that's just natural and how I am as a mum. I don't understand how my mum hasn't that for me but I just have to accept it.

Take care of yourself, OP. As a mother myself I think you are entitled to protect yourself and if she were a good mother she would support your decision.

My guess is that you hadn’t heard about Dr Joshua Coleman until I mentioned him, did a quick google and then assumed with no knowledge that he was biased against adult children who’d estranged themselves. I’ve been benefiting from his knowledge and wisdom for 10 years or so and his own estrangement (which he’s perfectly upfront about) was old news 10 years ago. His daughter was 22 at the time and Joshua was divorcing her mother. This relatively short period of estrangement did give him empathy towards those caring parents whose adult children had estranged themselves. He also supports and understands why some adult children do estrange themselves.This is a quote from him

I also treat adult children who are estranged from their parents. Some of those adult children want no contact because their parents behaved in ways that were clearly abusive or rejecting. To make matters worse for their children and themselves, some parents are unable to repair or empathize with the damage they caused or continue to inflict. However, my recent research—and my clinical work over the past four decades—has shown me that you can be a conscientious parent and your kid may still want nothing to do with you when they’re older.

My own much more limited experience concurs with his last sentence. My personal situation I’ve described earlier.

This will be my last post on the subject as we’re moving away from the original post. I’ve never suggested the OP should doubt her own experiences. My responses has been largely to those trigger happy “estrangers”. Sadly estrangement is not rare and many people in the field believe it’s increasing https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20211201-family-estrangement-why-adults-are-cutting-off-their-parents. The evidence is against you, some people sadly do estrange for small reasons as equally some estrange for good reasons.

If you "don't understand" where OP is coming from or you would "give anything" to have one more hug from your darling mother, it's because you didn't grow up with a shit, neglectful mum. Lucky you.

A second “last post” I’m afraid, I’m really sorry about your situation and as I’ve always said estrangement is often justified imo, but not always again imo. Take care,

I just wanted to give an update on the thread.

I had gone NC with my mother, eventually she text saying she had to be the bigger person. I just ignored it and I brought the kids to see her and since then it's been superficial between her and me. She hasn't asked me about my divorce, just throws in some jibes and underhand comments.

Last weekend she brought up the subject of my divorce. I said clearly that I did not want to discuss it. She kept pushing, I kept saying no and eventually she abused me. I've ruined my life, you never did know what you were doing in relationships, you've had a great life but yet you're still not happy, that after having such a great life that I should suck it up now for my kids. That they were now more important then me.

I said I've had a good life (travelled, financially independent etc) but I studied extremely hard to achieve that. She then said well I've a terrible life. I said that is not my fault. She is clearly jealous or resentful of the life I've had. All because she didn't have a good life.

I did lose my temper but didn't say anything too hurtful. I said I can't understand how you haven't been there for your own daughter even if you don't fully agree with me divorcing. I've told you how down and alone I am but you are still not there for me. I hung up on her.

I'm genuinely done. I'm so hurt.

You have tried to resume a relationship with your mum, albeit a superficial one so that she can see your chldren. She has once again thrown it all back in your face because she simply can't resist making unkind and critical comments about your divorce.

Unfortunately, this time you need to make your estrangement permanent because she finds it impossible to learn from her mistakes. She insists on calling you selfish for ending your unhappy marriage, instead of behaving like a loving mother and supporting you through the divorce. She also sounds like someone that will always take the man's side, even in the case of her own daughter's unhappy marriage.

You have been more than generous with your time and help for your mum despite your unhappy childhood. Unfortunately, she didn't and still doesn't appreciate it. I wish you and your children all the best.

If someone is repeatedly hurting you and does not change no matter how often it’s explained and asked for, you have no choice really.

I’m still in touch with DM because I have accessed loads of counselling, am
massively compassionate, and don’t have other huge stressors in my life at the moment. It’s been very difficult over the years.

If we were struggling for money or had a disabled child, frankly, I wouldn’t be able to tolerate her.

I’m sorry @Axelotolsarecute
That’s so disappointing for you.

My understanding of my own mother is that she doesn’t actually feel relationships- she understands them theoretically. So she sees how families play out, from her own experience and from tv, and tries to recreate that in some way.

So DM wants our family to look like her friends’ families, whether they do things together and celebrate birthdays etc. But DM was very absent as a mother. She went on holiday without me a lot when I was a child, did nothing for my 18th and missed my 21st. She has lived to please herself, always. She’s not very nice to spend time with.

But she wants to look like a close family. She doesn’t know how that actually happens though.

So if your mum is similar, she wants you to look like her model of success. If you don’t, you’re suggesting her life wasn’t successful. She can’t grasp that success for you looks different from success for her.

Yes @myplace my mum likes to portray a certain vision of how her family looks to outsiders. Example, she didn't want me telling anyone about my divorce, not even to her so called best friend. She then looks down her nose at her best friend's daughter who is also divorced. I couldn't give two s**ts what the Jones's think of me!!

I also got several nasty texts after our phone call, saying she can't say anything to me, that I lose my temper (I rarely lose my temper with anyone), that I've finally admitted she's a bad mother (never said that but she obviously has some guilt from my childhood), that I wish she was dead, well now I can presume she is and that I was banned from her funeral. I text back and asked her to stop, that I was and am astounded that she's simply happy to not support her daughter when she feels so alone.

I will never ever be able to have a proper conversation with her, she's not capable. It's all about her.

One of the things that gives me comfort with my emotionally unavailable and neglectful dm is that she was like that before I was born. Everything is for show. Superficial. She cares about what things look like to others, but not how people feel.

Mine will never approve of me. No matter what I do. But if I do as she says, and it's all about control, she'll throw a few crumbs of affection. I think this is common with some people, this sort of behaviour. They were never capable of loving and supporting in the normal way.

Mine was ok with the gc until they were older. Then she started on them too. Nothing they do is good. One got into medical school. That was rubbish, they shouldn't go there, she hates that town. She is jealous of the dc in the family. But then she tries to bully them into having meals with people she knows (who they've never met) with a view to boasting about them.

I don't know if any of this resonates but if it does, there are plenty of resources on over critical, emotionally absent parents. But I strongly suspect it isn't so much about you but more about her and her own inadequacies.

FWIW I didn't miss mine when she was gone.

And still don't 20 years later.

It’s very sad.

However, on the bright side- you will feel so much better when you stop hoping. I cannot describe the relief that comes when you stop hoping to please, trying to please, trying to avoid annoying, trying to keep the peace.

It frees up so much energy. I just keep things ticking over now. Ring fairly often and let her talk at me for an hour or so while I hmm and nod. Visit on the key occasions. Have her here a couple of times a year. But no emotions. No emotional engagement at all, because that way lies disappointment.