"It's not the dogs or the dog breed: it's the owners"

[HazelPlayer]

Do you agree?

The person who has said this several times is also thinking of getting either a Rottweiler or a Staffie as a pet around a young child.

I agree - having worked with dogs for 30+ years I can tell you with clarity that no puppy is born bad.

Irresponsible owners who don't invest time and effort in the correct training are the cause in 99% cases of dogs being poorly behaved.

I had 2 pups from the same litter, one was an angel and as soft as a brush. The other was a demon and pretty vicious.

I believe some breeds/genetic lines have flaws which can make the dogs dangerous in surburban settings.

Rubbish. Some dogs are genetically predisposed to aggression.

No it is the breed in the main with an aggravating factor of a thick idiot as an owner. Dog breeds are incredibly varied and are bred to have certain traits. If a dog is bred poorly from unsuitable parents then it can have health an temperament issues such as we are seeing with the xl bully breed which has been bred extremely poorly and for aggression. The other obvious factor to suggest it is breed related is the size of the dog and the dogs capability to kill. A badly bred chihuahua that is aggressive has no capability to inflict damage because it has been bred to be small. The size of xl bully’s is a breed characteristic so yes their capability to inflict harm is essentially breeding.

That's a contradiction, no? What causes poor behaviour in the remaining 1%?

It’s a meaningless distinction as the sorts of people you really wouldn’t want owning a dangerous dog are the only sorts of people who do. By definition they’re not safe to have that dog because they’re the sort of person who would have that dog.

No one thinks the dogs are morally to blame. It’s not their fault they’ve been bred like this any more than it’s their fault they have useless owners. It’s not the dog’s fault when it mauls someone, just as it’s not the gun’s fault when it shoots someone. But we still ban guns 🤷‍♀️

Yeah it's definitely the owners.

BUT I still wouldn't want to own a dog so strong and powerful, I couldn't fight them off with a few swift kicks.

Especially if I had children in the house.

I don't know enough about it to confidently say.

I'm curious to know whether every XL Bully that has gone ' nuts' of late was raised poorly.

Except that a badly trained Yorkie doesn't kill people and a badly trained Bully XL does.
WHY is this so difficult to understand?

Some dogs are gentle and some are not

Some dogs bite with a little nip, others have string jaws and if they bite, they clamp down and don't let go which is much more dangerous.

Some owners are sensible and can train and exercise their dogs, others don't.

When you get the bad combination of all 3 factors, things are much much more likely to go wrong.

Both breeds are fantastic with children, what is your issue exactly

It’s 95% the breed, 5% the owner. I have no doubt there are very vicious cocker spaniels, but there’s a reason they’re not in the news every week, and it’s not because all cocker spaniel owners are amazing dog handlers.

For the same reason I would not own an alligator, however lovely some alligators may be, I would not own a proven vicious breed like a Rottweiler/bully etc.

I actually hate this myth. I absolutely fucking hate it more than any other myth in the world. It does an enormous disservice to many breeds of dog.

Plenty of breeds or even random dogs are indeed born highly strung, susceptible to aggression, separation anxiety, destructive behaviours, with a petrological need for stimulation and physical movement. We have bred them to be this way, particularly in working breeds. The idea that with "love" and being a "good owner" you can undo what is in there nature is ridiculous. Guard dogs were bred to guard plain and simple, herding breeds bred to herd and thousands of years of evolution doesn't change because you read a book on dog training. I've seen great homes own awful dogs and and I've seen awful homes have some of the most laid back well behaved dogs.

I've owned many dogs. Worked in rescue. Have reduced many privately. Some have been very agreeable and biddable. Some of been absolutely not.

We should change the narrative around owning a dog to being one where people are encouraged to get a dog that they can manage, not just by breed standard but on an individual basis. I know there is already social pressure to not house a Dane in a one bedroom flat etc. I am talking on an individual basis, where we treat animals in the same way we treat people. We look at them as an individual and see if we can form a relationship with them that is respectful and agreeable. Check that they have querks we can live with. They have behaviour which even if not suitable for somebody else, is suitable or acceptable for us.

Not all animals can fit in all homes, even with intense training. Yes sometimes people fail their pets but I've seen more times than not soft willing owners who have read every single piece of information, with a young dog they are constantly overwhelmed by. Even if they chose a breed with temperament they thought they would like and get on well with.

I have actually vowed off ever owning a young puppy again as I want to meet the dog I am going to end up with. A dog can be shaped in some forms of behaviour but other parts of them are intrinsic and can be very very different even among litter mates. They are not all blank slates or carbon copies, and not all bad behaviour is the result of an owner failing or trauma, sometimes it is just the dogs nature.

What a great post Anotherparkingthread

I have already decided we are getting no more after these have gone. It takes so much time and energy being a decent 'owner', and they are not objects, commodities, and perhaps the whole concept of 'pets' is troubling really. They are sentient individuals with their own individual needs and personality.

It's absolutely unbelievable that people think this is the case.

Of course it's bloody genetics. This is why you see breed characteristics and don't see chihuahuas herding sheep. Are people really this stupid? 🤦‍♀️

@Dotto as I've got older, my views have changed dramatically on many things we find acceptable regards pets. Even having a dog and going to work all day is something I find incredibly cruel and unacceptable.

The concept of many pets is cruel, possibly with the exception of cats given freedom to roam. Many people just don't deserve pets if they can't give them everything they need. Even as far as that lone guinea pig or lone pet rat. It's wrong. I even look at horses now and think do they like that? Having that in their mouths? Being whipped and booted? They may enjoy it because the ride is rewarding but I think we just don't question ourselves enough.

I know I sound a right bore ( I'm not) I'm just looking at these things differently with age.

These XL Bullies have inbred temperaments and that isn't going away no matter how good you are a dog owner.

Breeds are different because they are literally bred with specific traits. So of course it's the breed, You can't train or love out genetics. Pointers gonna point, retrievers gonna retrieve, pillbulls gonna maul.

It’s both.

So does that mean we can put the owners down when their out of control dog savages someone?

No dog is totally safe around children. Any dog can be pushed too far by a child and retaliate - no matter how cute and soft the dog is. No amount of training takes the dog out of the dog.

You could apply the same reasoning to knives, guns, nuclear weapons, or...

Some dogs are dangerous.

This is correct. But also some dogs are more unsafe than others.
I you choose to have an XLBully around a small child and the worst happens, then you are absolutely to blame.

As someone else who has worked with dogs for many many years, I wholeheartedly disagree with this. It's the hill that I will choose to die on.

Breed and genetics play a HUGE part. You cannot train genetics out of a dog. There are many breeds that should NEVER have been domestic pets. You can reduce the risk to an extent by being a responsible owner who understands and meets your dogs needs 100%, but a large number of dogs aren't actually in the right homes or with the right owners. Fortunately for the vast majority of people this doesn't lead to catastrophic outcomes, but in the tragic cases that reach the news, it does. A miniature poodle who is lacking the mental stimulation that they require, is never going to have the same dire consequences as an XL bully would in a similarly unsuitable environment.

Puppies aren't born bad, however, they are born with a genetic predisposition to certain characteristics, to deny this and say that it's all down to the owner, is absurd. If it was all down to the owner and training, then why do we pick specific breeds to be police dogs, service dogs, herding dogs etc? It's because of genetics, hence why we don't just pick any dog for those tasks.

People repeatedly buy unsuitable breeds, that have significant power and genetics that don't lend themselves to being domestic pets, and then claim they are shocked when it all goes wrong.

I adore dogs. I spend my life with dogs, but we are doing them a disservice by repeatedly forcing them to fit a domestic mold, when some of them just don't. None of this is the dogs fault, it is all the fault of people who refuse to acknowledge the genetics and potential that their dog has.